Pointy eggs and whales (Evolution)

by David Turell @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 21:39 (92 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: If there is a God, “purpose” requires an attempt to read his mind […] In view of the astonishingly rich spectacle of an ever changing history of comings and goings – with humans clearly offering the richest spectacle of all – I have suggested that if there is a God, his purpose might have been to create an astonishingly rich spectacle of an ever changing history etc. I can’t help feeling that an eternally conscious mind would be bored to oblivion if it had nothing to do all eternity long. Whether such a God has any purpose beyond that of the spectacle will only be revealed to me if there is some form of conscious afterlife.

DHW: ...I was responding to the post in which you complained that “we do not extend the idea of purpose beyond our own existence to say, what is the purpose of everything, not just our purpose. […] Perhaps [you could] let us know what you believe to be the purpose of everything. (my bold)

TONY: I have commented before that, from my biblical perspective, I view creation as both a gift and a bit of a father/son project. From my perspective, that doesn't lessen anything as I am extremely grateful to be alive at all!

I’m sure all three of us regard life as a gift, and are grateful for it. A “bit of a father/son project” rather narrows the scope of “purpose”, as outlined below.

TONY: That said, as any father would want to teach his son, perhaps this has also been in part to help his son attain fullness in his own right. Perhaps, being the first to exist, the first to know an understand anything, he realizes that life is, in and of itself, perhaps the greatest purpose there is, and sees creating a fullness of it as to be the highest calling he could aspire to. The bible refers to him as 'the living god', and it also mentions that his son did not have 'life in him' from the beginning, but through his endeavors it was put into him (though I also think limited human language muddies the water there).

DHW: I’m puzzled by this answer. You complained that we did not ask for the purpose of everything, as opposed to just our purpose. Now you seem to be offering us two purposes: 1) Your God teaching his son to attain “fullness”; 2) Your God creating fullness of life. By “everything”, I thought you meant the universe and all life, which would include every form of life that has ever existed, including our own. Perhaps, though, you could explain what you mean by “fullness”. Meanwhile, I have offered a theistic purpose (God’s wish to relieve his own boredom by creating an ever changing spectacle) in the paragraph with which I have opened this post. I’d be surprised if you agreed with it, but if you don’t, it would be interesting to know why, and it would be interesting to know how your God’s hoped-for attainment of Jesus’s "fullness" explains the billions of solar systems and the billions of life forms and natural wonders extant and extinct.


Tony: Actually, allow me try breaking it down in point-by-point logic:

1: There is/was/will ever be, energy.
2: This energy, however it happened, became self-aware and grew in organization (lived)
3: As the organization (self-awareness) grew, it realized that growth and organization (life/fullness/self-actualization) is a purpose in and of itself.
4: It grew in its own fullness.
5: It reached a point where it realized that it could not grow further in isolation (became aware of the possibility of reproduction)
6: It reproduced for the first time. (First direct creation)
7: It helped its spawn grow its awareness.
8: It realized that, like it, its spawn would need to 'reproduce' to achieve fullness.
9: It realized that this process would have to continue infinitely, each new awareness growing and spreading.
10: Pondering the situation, it decided on a course of action that would accomplish both tasks, creating life/organization/self-awareness in a system that could continuously expand and grow infinitely(for all intents and purposes)
11: It worked through its offspring, allowing its offspring to grow along one trajectory, while it grew along another, possibly with the intent that at some point its offspring would start its own cycle while it continued to grow in new directions.

In this line of thinking, God is not only the progenitor, but also always at the head of the growth curve, always more advanced, always in the lead. The offspring, being aware of this, always follows the direction of its progenitor.

I've always said pure energy first.


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