Genome complexity: what genes do and don't do (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, March 21, 2019, 10:35 (1864 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Scientific conclusions are not by democratic vote, but by paradigm shifts (Kuhn).

dhw: Agreed. Let us then eagerly await the shift of paradigm through the discovery of programmes for whale flippers, cuttlefish camouflage, monarch migration and weaverbirds’ nests (multiply examples by a few billion) hidden inside the bacterial genome. Or possibly a shift of paradigm towards cellular intelligence.

DAVID: I still view cells as incapable of designing their future, well beyond their capacities.

Fair enough. It is a hypothesis. And I still view your own hypothesis (above) as beyond belief.

DAVID: […] Species arrive de novo and no one knows why, based on natural events. There Are no intermediate forms, since the ones we find have huge gaps on either side.

dhw: Yes, we’ve been over this a hundred times. You suggest divine preprogramming or dabbling, and I suggest cellular intelligence. I trust you now agree that your God’s design of H. sapiens proceeded itty bitty by my definition.

DAVID: Not at all. You are ignoring the facts. The gaps are huge and require design.

I agree that they require design, and I propose that cellular intelligence (perhaps God-given) might be the designer. Meanwhile, I trust you now agree that your God’s design of H. sapiens proceeded itty-bitty by my definition.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-018-0174-y
QUOTE: "Natural transformation is a broadly conserved mechanism of horizontal gene transfer in bacterial species that can shape evolution and foster the spread of antibiotic resistance determinants, promote antigenic variation and lead to the acquisition of novel virulence factors.” (dhw’s bold)

DAVID: Bacteria can alter their responses with this mechanism, but, for example, E. coli will stay E. coli. Doesn't solve speciation.

dhw: Nobody has yet solved speciation, but if you believe that all species descended from other species, that does not mean that all their antecedents have to die out! Of course E.coli are still E.coli, just as apes are still apes. The proposal is that SOME single cells formed multicellular communities, and over billions of years SOME multicellular communities changed themselves into different multicellular communities. And since we now know that bacteria can change their responses, MAYBE that same mechanism is capable of producing “novel factors” which have “shaped evolution” (See the Behe thread)

DAVID: As far as I am concerned speciation requires design. 99% of all species have disappeared, but bacteria are still here. Why? Current microbiome research shows those happy bugs are absolutely necessary for our life and health, which they seriously influence. Talk about an obvious purpose as to why they persisted. Paying attention to 'purpose' is always necessary in these discussions.

We were talking about the cause of speciation, and in order to discredit the theory of cellular intelligence as the designer you pointed out that bacteria are still bacteria. I pointed out that if you believe in common descent, SOME organisms change while others remain the same. How does that prove they are not intelligent? And if your God exists, I have no doubt that he would have created them with a purpose. Same question: How does that prove they are not intelligent?