Logic and evolution: Plantinga project. God is Back? (Introduction)

by David Turell , Saturday, December 26, 2020, 16:47 (1426 days ago) @ dhw

GEORGE: DHW says: "The big bang theory is irrelevant, since we cannot know what preceded it, if it happened." and "It is irrelevant because we do not know what preceded it! You say your eternal, thinking, first-cause God preceded it and caused it; I say maybe a first-cause eternal universe of constantly changing matter and energy preceded it and caused it."
DT says: "The BB is directly estimated at 13.78 bya. The science community in general accepts something started this current universe at that time, and it is not irrelevant."

George: I'm sure we have discussed this before. If the big bang happened then it created TIME as well as Space, Energy and Matter all at the same zero instant of time. There was no time "before". Of course there are theories such as Roger Penrose's cyclic universe that imagine something before, so that the creation from nothing is replaced by a phase change, but as far as I know there is no evidence for this yet, and in any case it just puts the origin further back. The alternative is an infinite regress that seems to explain nothing.

dhw: I share your proviso: “IF the big bang happened”, but even if it did, I’m afraid I find it impossible to believe that countless billions of stars and galaxies originally sprang from nothing. And what exactly does that theory explain? To me it’s just as illogical as the belief that the big bang was caused by an immaterial conscious mind which has existed for ever. The fact is, we still know very little even about the universe that we can actually observe – approx. 90% of it is supposed to consist of unknown matter and energy, though we prefer to call it “dark” so that it can take on some kind of official identity. We have nothing but theories about what lies beyond or what happened before. An “infinite regress” is just as likely as any other theory.

DAVID: Irrelevant only in your philosophy. The fact that this current universe had a timed appearance which is unexplained is entirely relevant. At Hawking's 70th birthday conference it was fully accepted in a Guth, etc. article there is no before, before the big Bang. Further you are describing a theory known as a 'Big Bounce' which requires a curved universe spacetime and this one is measured as flat.

dhw: This is an astonishing claim from someone who believes in a conscious mind of “pure energy” which engineered the big bang! Of course you believe in a before. And if you can believe in pre-existing and eternal conscious energy, you can believe in pre-existing unconscious and eternal energy and matter. The big bang may be relevant to your belief in conscious design, but it’s not relevant to a discussion on “first cause”.

It is extremely relevant. Note the bold above. The only 'before' is God from my view. For the reason that I don't believe your red phrase can accomplish anything without a designing mind hard at work..