Logic and evolution (Introduction)

by David Turell , Thursday, June 30, 2016, 18:21 (3066 days ago) @ dhw


> DAVID: (under “Why sex evolved”): None of my hypotheses are illogical, because logic does not explain God's intentions or plans.
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> dhw:I'm afraid I cannot follow the logic of this sentence.
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> David's comment (Under “Beyond Higgs; final proof difficult”): dhw and I spend much time debating the complexities of evolution which defy logic. Note here the complexities of the zoo of the underlying particles of our reality.-> I cannot follow your logic here either. I am not aware of you having offered any theory concerning "particle zoo complexity", and I certainly haven't.-My point is quite clear. We have a particle zoo that can be logically predicted from the arrangements that have been found, but we don't know why the particles have to exist the way they do to create the universe. This is a black box of theory, just as Darwin's evolution is a black box. We have accepted common descent, but we don't know how it works or why it seems to work the way it does. I think it requires a planning mind to create the enormous complexities. It is a conclusion based on the complexities of living organisms. The methodology is pure guess work. -> dhw: It is not the complexities of evolution that defy logic; it is your interpretation of how and why those complexities have been produced that I find “too complex, too cumbersome and therefore not reasonable”.-I've concluded the process needs God. You don't, but have to flail around for reasonable answers. That is our difference. I have various theories about God, but I have no idea which if any are correct.-> dhw: I said I found it difficult to believe that your dabbling God went rushing round the world to teach bacteria how to resist antibiotics (I should also have asked why he would do so). Your response is:
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> David: I'm the guy who has presented extremophiles! These are not simple adaptations. For me it must be saltations, or dabbles, because at this level we are talking about the intricacies of metabolism, not simple living reactions. This is species creation. You are the one who is not seeing the difference clearly.
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> dhw: It is not species creation (broad sense), since they remain bacteria, but that is beside the point.-Yes it is species creation: saltations reek of God's activity.-> dhw: What reason is there to assume that your God must have “helped” bacteria to resist antibiotics (though you don't know how or why)?-Why do you think God helped in antibiotic resistance? Bacteria have been given their own horizontal DNA transfer mechanism. Bacteria need no help.-> dhw: You do in fact offer a nebulously phrased concession on the “giraffe” thread:
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> DAVID: I can accept God designing a planning process for speciation within organisms. The problem is,for me, no evidence so far. There is no discovered speciation mechanism, only Darwin theory which we have abandoned.-Exactly the point given above: saltation =s God.
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> dhw:Your preprogramming/dabbling way, which makes no sense, or my (perhaps God-given) autonomous intelligence way, which logically explains the higgledy-piggledy bush and dispenses with the questions of how and why God “helps”. If one theistic explanation of the bush is logical, and the other is not, why should we turn our backs on logic?-Your answers are no more logical than mine. Either God pre-programs or He dabbles or He gives organisms a species planning mechanism, the latter no yet found. You will win the argument only if and when such mechanism is found, with no evidence so far. Speciation is totally unexplained.
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> dhw: As for no evidence, of course there is nothing conclusive or we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the astonishingly intelligent (though always limited) behaviour of all organisms in finding ways to survive and to adapt might just possibly be an indication that your God (theistic version) actually made them intelligent (in their own particular, limited way) and they are not merely obeying his personal instructions.-Or just as logically, He helps them.