Evolution and humans: Neanderthal contributions (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, September 01, 2019, 15:51 (1908 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I'll admit evolution is a slow convoluted process, but it is the only process that actually happened. And I think the underlying cause is God. And your implication remains the same: why didn't God directly create humans without all the byplay?

dhw: That is indeed the question I am asking. You and I believe evolution is the only process, and for argument’s sake I have agreed that the underlying cause is God. But your concept of evolution is that your God directly designed every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in the history of life (presumably, however, manipulating the cells of existing creatures, since it is common descent that you accept). Your latest example of natural wonders is spider legs. Your comment: “This setup had to be designed by a designer.” So he was able to directly design every life form etc., but he couldn’t or wouldn’t directly design what according to you was the only thing he wanted to create: H. sapiens. Therefore he indulged in “byplay” for 3.X billion years before indulging in more byplay with lots of different hominins and homos, some of whose features got passed on to other homos until his final direct creation of the remaining features of H. sapiens (brain, pelvis etc.). And this, according to you, is not a roundabout process!

Once again you give evidence your concept of God as making wrong decisions in achieving a purpose, creating humans. I use history as evidence. We evolved. God did it. You don't accept that. We remain apart.

DAVID: As the design argument keeps you an agnostic, do you really think your God would conjure up cell committees with an ability equal to brain work. That really is a roundabout theory.

dhw: Nothing roundabout here. Humans have designed machines with an ability to do different forms of brain work. You believe your God invented the brain to do brain work, and yet you don’t believe that the components of the brain can do brain work. Or had you not realized the brain is composed of cell communities?

All of which are designed to be wired together to work together with purpose.

DAVID: Is your God so lazy He sets up a mechanism to do the work for Him?

dhw: What work did he want done? Perhaps he wanted to create a mechanism that would autonomously provide a vast variety of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders which he could, in your own words, “watch with interest”. “That makes him human!” you cry, objecting to your very own proposal. No it doesn’t. It simply gives him and us something in common. And it fits in perfectly with the history of life as we know it.

How do you know we have anything in common with God other than consciousness? And how does history prove that?

DAVID: God's method is God's method of creation. I don't question His reasons for His choices. I look at His works, the most mature way of analyzing God.

dhw: You have still not told us the difference between a goal and a single purpose (now bolded). Please do so, as it is central to our disagreement. And yes of course his method is his method. You look at his works, come up with an illogical theory about his purpose and his method, and then refuse to question what is not HIS choice but is your own illogical interpretation of his choice, which you justify by pretending you know that God’s logic is not human logic. (See “Unanswered questions”)

Goals and purposes are the same but the way you approach the argument is to strongly imply that my God was dominated by his desire for humans and foolishly took too much time to reach the evolution of humans. A complete distortion of my view of God, but a neat debating trick on your part.