dhw: Evolution and humans: Neanderthal lungs larger (Evolution)

by dhw, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 12:47 (2189 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The spiders are part of the diversity of life for the formation of econiches which allow everyone who continues to evolve to eat and have the ability to have the energy to do that.

dhw: Of course they are part of the diversity of life, but the econiches only allow everyone to eat until they do not allow everyone to eat, and then the econiches change. That does not make them stepping stones to humans.

DAVID: As usual ignoring the length of time required for evolution to reach the goal of humans. Of course econiches change, but they still continuously provide energy which evolving life requires.

Yes, yes, every econiche requires and provides energy. The fact that it took 3+ billion years for humans to appear does not mean that every econiche, innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder extant and extinct was a stepping stone to humans!

DAVID: All the examples simply show the diversity of life that creates the econiches.

Exactly. You need diversity for any econiche. Nothing to do with "stepping stones to humans".

DAVID: The diversity did not create humans, evolution did as controlled by God. How you twist the reasoning!

No twisting. You tell us your God specially designed 50,000 spiders’ webs, the weaverbird’s nest and the different stages of whale as stepping stones to his goal of producing humans, but you can’t explain why he stepped this way, and so you say your God’s logic is different from ours!

DAVID: I have yet to see you present a logical purposeful activity of God.

dhw: Then let me yet again repeat my theistic hypothesis: that a single mind (your God) needs something to keep itself occupied. It therefore creates the mechanisms for life, reproduction and evolution as an ever changing spectacle, which it watches unfolding in different ways (diversity), perhaps occasionally dabbling when it feels like doing so. Although you don’t like it, that is a logical purposeful activity, which you have repeatedly agreed fits in with the history of life as we know it.

DAVID; Again, you dredge up the psychological concept of 'pass timing' applied to all humans. […] I've never agreed to that mechanism behind God's action. What I have agreed to is God acted to create life in the way you describe, not his possible motives for self-entertainment as the impetus.

And yet again you ignore the context of my response. You said I had never presented a logical purposeful activity of God (now bolded). I answered you, and so your response is to tell me you don’t believe it.

DAVID: I am convinced God designed evolution until we arrived. As for humans as the endpoint, have you considered we are in charge of the Earth now, and any further evolution is subject to how we allow it. There are very concerned philosophical articles on the subject.

dhw: […] Nobody has a clue where evolution will lead us over the next few billion years, so it is impossible to talk of an “endpoint”. To a certain extent we are in charge, but as things stand we are still helpless when Nature exerts its powers (tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions), not to mention the sort of catastrophe that could come to us from outer space. As for us, I think you’ll find that even non-philosophers are very concerned about what humans are doing to the environment, to our fellow animals, and to ourselves. I don’t know why you think this means your God specially designed 50,000 spider webs etc. etc. as stepping stones to humans.

DAVID: Your usual convoluted non-answer to the point that only evolution controlled by humans is what the future will see. Yes there are natural events that create dangers. we are studying asteroids to learn how to control them. We are studying volcanoes to have the proper warnings. God gave us the brain power to solve these problems.

Nothing convoluted, and hardly a non-answer. I agree that we are changing evolution, but so can Nature: we haven’t solved the problems yet, and natural disasters – e.g. some major change in the sun – could end life altogether!

DAVID: And the stepping stones to humans are life's complexity, as explained by food supply, another subject you talk around.

All life needs food, and changing food supply explains why econiches change. All life is complex. That does not mean that all life is a stepping stone to humans!

DAVID: Remember I think God manages a controlled evolution. You are still partial Darwinist, while disavowing a portion of his theory, as in your hypothesis that some how minor adaptation shows organisms can perform major adaptations in major changes in environmental living conditions. That is pure Darwin wishful thinking.

The fact that you are convinced God manages a controlled evolution, with every innovation etc. preprogrammed or dabbled in advance of changing conditions and with humans as its goal, does not provide a single reason why the rest of us should believe you. Why do you mention Darwin, other than to divert attention from your illogical "stepping stones"? Yes, I am a “partial Darwinist”. So what? The concept of cellular intelligence as a driving force is neither pure Darwin nor wishful thinking. It is a hypothetical explanation of evolution based on research Darwin knew nothing about.