dhw: Evolution and humans: Neanderthal lungs larger (Evolution)

by David Turell , Friday, November 30, 2018, 18:52 (2183 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You are simply repeating Darwin's theory that survival adaptations may cause new species. And I'm simply saying it is logical to view survivability as only helping existing organisms to survive and has no way of explaining the gaps we know exist.

dhw: Forget Darwin. You are talking to me. Nobody can explain the gaps, and I have agreed over and over again that we do not have the evidence to prove that the mechanism for adaptation is also capable of innovation. Now please tell me why your hypothesis that your God changed pre-whales’ legs to fins before there was any need to do so is more commonsensical than the proposal that there was a need for pre-whales to enter the water, and their bodies adapted accordingly in the quest to improve their chances of survival?

Fine answer but no solid explanation. Just wishful thinking. Adaptation doesn't lead to speciation. Pure Darwin which I'm not supposed to point out.

Under “whale teeth and baleens”:

QUOTE: When whales first evolved, they used teeth to chew their food, just like their land-dwelling ancestors. As time went on, many descendants of these early whales continued to chew their food, inheriting this trait from their predecessors. But as the oceans around them changed and animals evolved, entirely new feeding strategies arose, including baleen filter feeding, says National Museum of Natural History predoctoral fellow Carlos Mauricio Peredo, the lead author of the study who analyzed the Maiabalaena fossils.
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-11-whales-lost-teeth-evolving-hair-like.html#jCp

dhw: A great example of the manner in which all kinds of changes take place in response to environmental change. Or do you think your God took away pre-baleen’s teeth and then told him to filter feed?

It is no explanation but a huge gap in how it happened. A transitional form does not fill gaps!

Yes. If your God is purposeful, I would like to know his purpose, and so I look at his work to try to understand his purpose. What is wrong with that?

DAVID: As for material innovation, that is changing material form, not a mechanism at the level of mentation (free will). Why does one process mean another?

dhw: The one doesn’t mean the other. You keep insisting that God remains in full control of evolution. We have an example of him deliberately sacrificing control (free will). If he deliberately sacrificed control in one instance, why should he not do so in another (equipping organisms with the means of controlling their own evolution)?

A repeated non-sequitur. God has every right to give us consciousness which gave us free will as part of an evolutionary process, but He still remains in full overall control.

DAVID: God does what God does and I look at results, since His reasons are not clear. Why should they be? You are fascinated at the workings of a mind you believe doesn't exist, or that you can't imagine might exist as you remain agnostic.

dhw: I emphatically do not believe he doesn’t exist. And yes, I am fascinated by the workings of his mind if he does exist. And yes, I look at results as you do in my efforts to understand what might be the purpose you keep harping on about. (See my post under “Innovation, Speciation”.) You have concluded that only he could have designed 50,000 webs etc. etc. and he did so because his purpose was to specially design H. sapiens. I can’t see any logic in this. Instead, as you know only too well, I am suggesting that he may have given spiders the autonomous means to design their own webs – i.e. that he deliberately sacrificed control, and unlike your anthropocentric hypothesis, that would offer a logical (theistic) explanation of the result you and I look at: i.e. the long higgledy-piggledy history of life extant and extinct (though I also allow for occasional dabbling).

As usual I reject your fanciful theory. The webs have no direct connection to humans, a point you constantly distort. The webs are part of the energy supply so life can stay alive and evolve. You might ask why whales exist. Part of the econiches, nothing more.