Brain complexity: learning new tasks (Introduction)

by dhw, Tuesday, December 26, 2017, 09:17 (2525 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You say your God enlarged the pre-sapiens cortex BEFORE pre-sapiens could come up with his new concepts, and I propose the cortex enlarged through the implementation of new concepts.
DAVID: The only evidence we have before us is the complexity that developed in illiterate women learning to read. That is implementation.

You gave us the example of right-handed people learning to work with their left hand (or was it vice versa?). Experiments are going on all the time, though not just with people, but you have agreed on several occasions (the last being on Saturday 23.12) that “implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain”. However, I shall look forward to your providing us with examples of how the modern brain rewires itself in anticipation of new concepts.

DAVID: The other fact we know is the modern sapiens brain is smaller as we civilized. And even though the human brain arrived 300,000 years ago, real civilized use of the brain began only 10,000 years ago and it is now a little smaller! We make tremendous use of the brain frontal lobe now. That is where the thought development and knowledge occurred.

All dealt with several times, including in the post you are replying to (see below), except for the ambiguity of your final sentence, which you repeat in your second post:
DAVID: The pre-frontal cortex is where thought and concepts take place. […] Consciousness/soul/self use that specific cortex for ideation.

You have argued that soul/self/consciousness are one, and until now you have claimed that your s/s/c does the thinking. Now you say thought occurs/takes place/develops in the cortex, and your soul “uses” it for ideation. What do you mean by the soul “using” the cortex to do its thinking? You keep agreeing that your “soul” uses the brain to acquire information and to implement its concepts, but does the cortex or the “soul” do the thinking, i.e. produce the concepts? Your next reply is an astonishing volte face on your part:

dhw:The major question is how concepts arise in the first place. If they depend on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex, the obvious conclusion is that the pre-frontal cortex is the source of concepts, which you reject.
DAVID: I don't reject it.

If the brain, or since you wish to be even more precise, the pre-frontal cortex might be the SOURCE of concepts (as opposed to the recipient, as you have always claimed), then you cannot insist that mind and body are separate entities, with the mind using the body. I’m delighted to welcome you to my agnostic fence.

dhw: You are quite right to say that the final enlargement (which in my hypothesis would have been the RESULT of implementing earlier concepts) preceded all the “civilized” concepts we have now, because by then the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over.
DAVID: Agree. complexity had to appear to keep the skull a reasonable size.

You agree, but then you proceed to ignore what you have agreed with:

DAVID: But all of the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement of the pre-frontal lobes, not before.

Once again: the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement and not before because after the final enlargement the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over, as you agree.

DAVID: We do not know of a mental requirement that forced the final enlargement 300,000 years ago. And later: Can you point out any complex implementations that occurred among humans before cave art 30,000 years ago?

Nobody “knows” why ANY of the pre-sapiens stages of brain expansion took place! That is why there are so many theories: random mutations, descent from the trees, bipedalism, use of fire, cooking. You claim that your God preprogrammed or dabbled each one in preparation for new concepts. So can you “point out” for what new concepts he enlarged each successive brain, say from Australopithecus onwards, and especially for what new concepts he made the final enlargement before complexification took over from enlargement?

DAVID: I still believe ours [the pre-frontal cortex] is an endpoint with its neuroplasticity mechanisms.
dhw: The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.

DAVID: We are the endpoint of brain evolution. Without our newly attained size of frontal and prefrontal cortex we would still be at the erectus level. We are at a top level of plasticity because of all the complexity of neurons and axon connections we have to work with. We can do alterations they didn't have the neurons to do. Bony skulls are had to expand so the brain has to have the plasticity ability.

I have no idea how our brains will have developed in a billion years or so, if we are still around, but I’m glad you now acknowledge that it is plasticity and not size that has enabled us to reach this level. And to repeat the point you have failed to answer: The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
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Thank you for the article you have posted on brain damage. This is a major contribution to our debate, and I’ll reply to it tomorrow.