Problems with this section; for Frank (Agnosticism)

by dhw, Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 20:33 (5476 days ago) @ Frank Paris

Frank: Basically, I think you're trying to find more exactitude in what I'm saying than is required for the points I'm making, and we're spinning off into unproductive directions. You could do this forever and get so wrapped up in speculative intricacies that you'll never get back to the higher level formulations that I'm trying to make.[...] All I can see at this point in my life are the broad strokes.-You're certainly correct when you say I'm trying to find exactitude, but in my view what I'm looking for are not speculative intricacies... they're fundamental issues concerning the nature of a possible God and our relations with him. I would therefore like now to offer you two "theologies", one based directly on the explanations you've given me concerning the origin of life, and the other extrapolated from those relating to consciousness, but with a significant difference This will involve going over ground already covered, but I hope it will help you to understand why I sometimes press for precision. If, though, I'm still getting your ideas wrong, you will tell me so, and I apologize in advance. -You've stated that God is not responsible for Life on Earth and is therefore not responsible for the world's suffering. He "cuts loose" his particles to see what will happen, and has no control over them once he's cut them loose, but they can stick together and build up "higher organizations", which = evolution. You've also stated that he loves every individual, and that his purpose is to see himself reflected. (Trust me, this is all related to a single thread!) We now turn to Life on Earth. The particles that God cut loose stuck together and resulted in evolution. By accident, he therefore brought into being the vast variety of creatures and experiences that make up our world. Thanks to his infinite consciousness he's aware of every single creature (since he loves them all). He's therefore aware of every scream of pain, every maiming, premature death, depression, disaster etc. (The joys too, but these are not my focus here.) By accident he has caused every horror we know of ... his original purpose having been to see his own reflection. You might almost compare this to a drunk driver accidentally causing havoc as he tries to see himself in the driving mirror. Perhaps this vision is the truth ... I have no idea. I'm only pursuing the implications of the fragments I've gleaned from your posts. And the almost-but-not-quite-ultimate horror is that he can't do anything about it. (The ultimate horror would be that he enjoys it.) The only comfort the privileged among us can derive is that we're able to do the right thing in a given situation, while perhaps God himself finds comfort in the thought that "it's no great tragedy" if individuals like us die. These are what I see as "broad strokes" of your theology, and I have to say I find them pretty repugnant.-However, there's another side to your ideas ... my second "theology" ... which you seem determined to dismiss by abandoning your mystic persona and imposing your materialist one. You've said that the only consciousness is God's, which is infinite and non-physical. With humans, it "runs through the brain", and stops running when the brain dies. "God no longer has a channel in that lump of flesh to run his consciousness through." Consciousness, you emphasize, is a process, and individual identity "is a fiction that ignores the fact that "we" are just processes that have no immutable substance." (Please stay with me ... this again is all one thread.) If I've understood you correctly, however, God's consciousness too is a process without immutable substance. He loves us, wants to see himself reflected, is constantly learning, experimenting, being surprised, maybe even changing his views, and yet throughout the never-ending process he's still God. Likewise, the person I call "me" is a process, never staying the same, maybe even undergoing drastic changes ... you mentioned a stroke ... yet I still feel that I'm "me", that there's a fundamental core which is my individuality. Here's the suggestion then: God's non-physical consciousness runs through me, but it's mine, given to me at birth, absorbed by me and moulded to my own individual, though ever-changing form. At death, that non-physical form ... the individual identity ... does not stop running, but returns to and lives on in the all-embracing consciousness and love of God from which it first came. -This seems to have been something like the experience of many NDE patients. They were still themselves but in a different dimension. (Hallucinations? Maybe. And maybe your own religious experiences were hallucinations. I'm certainly not in a position to pass judgement.) My two scenarios are, I think, equally logical yet utterly different extensions of various mystic components of your beliefs. (As always, I must stress that these are simply ideas and not my own beliefs, since I remain firmly on my fence.) I recognize that they each raise unanswerable questions ... as indeed does the very concept of an infinite consciousness. I wonder, though, which of them comes closer to your own deep-down convictions.