Problems with this section (Agnosticism)

by Frank Paris , Friday, October 30, 2009, 21:30 (5291 days ago) @ dhw

'You agreed with Dawkins who "believes there is nothing beyond the natural physical world, no supernatural creative intelligence lurking beyond the observable universe."' -No, I don't agree with this. I thought I made that clear when I spoke several times about panentheism. God goes "beyond" the world. All I've tried to say is that the only efficient causes in the world are caused by the nature of matter. God influences other conscious creatures from within, not from without, as an external cause "pushing" matter this way and that. I'm open to the reality of telepathy, although I'm not sure there is any scientific evidence for it. If it exists, I believe that it also somehow takes place from within, but I'm on shaky grounds now. If it exists, it probably works similar to the way God communicates with conscious creatures, not through efficient cause but up from our depths. God works his way into our decisions "from below," and in mystical union, explodes into our consciousness. But if you could put probes in our brain, you'd be able to see neuronic reponses corresponding to that explosion, and you might be able to find every last nerve ending producing the conscious effect, and you might be able to categorize certain patterns associated with reports of mystical experience, and if you could compile a complete analysis, you might also someday be able to say that mystical experience never occurs without those patterns. But that wouldn't prove that God really isn't there in the experience. It just demonstrates the infinite potentiality of materiality, because it is all based on the divine.-'By "world" do you mean the same as Dawkins' "observable universe"?'-Probably.-"I can grasp the sense of God being 'within', but I need further explanation of what you mean by 'outside'"-I mean that what is in the world does not encapsulate God. There is more to God than there is in the world. In a sense the world is a reflection of the life of God. I also don't limit "the world" to our universe. I really like the idea of the "multiverse" as a continuous spawning of universes through eternal inflation. The idea that our universe is the beginning of everything, that "before" the Big Bang there was absolutely nothing, just doesn't make sense to me.-"Are you saying that outside the observable, physical universe there is an infinite consciousness that is NOT physical?"-Actually, I believe it is reasonable to say that outside of the observable, physical universe, there are an infinitely of other universes that are not observable, at least within our existing science. But this is just skirting your real question. I'm saying that God extends beyond even the multiverse if it exists, yet is the ground of it, as well. The multiverse is the life of God. God is infinite, and so is the multiverse. Both have always been and always will be (to use words from my catechism). God's experience grows with the growth of the multiverse. God is not static and unchanging, yet God still has an unchanging essence. Griffin's process theology points this out as well.-"You will realize for yourself that this would have enormous ramifications, as would any suggestion that God's infinite, physically induced consciousness stretches indefinitely into multiple physical universes."-God has consciousness of physical events in the multiverse. In fact God is conscious of every physical event in the multiverse. But I'm not sure it is correct to say that God's consciousness is limited to those events. Who am I to say that?-"The issue is the nature of an infinite consciousness outside the physical world."-Who knows?-"...for me the combination of materialism, abiogenesis, and an infinitely conscious and loving, but fundamentally helpless God comes as something of an intellectual shock!"-God is the opposite of "fundamentally helpless." You could say that the entire purpose of the universe (multiverse) is for God to see a reflection of himself in it. The further along conscious creatures evolve, the more self-conscious power God has in the world. Eventually, consciousness can reach a peak where God can take over entirely and completely control every action of the individual. Ironically, that's precisely when the individual experiences the greatest amount of freedom.-PNow put that in your pipe and smoke it!