Explaining natural wonders (Animals)

by dhw, Sunday, May 07, 2017, 13:16 (2756 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I agree solipsism is a problem, but I am inside me and I know when and why I change course or respond.

dhw: Correction: you certainly know when, but you cannot be sure that you know why, because you cannot know the complete chain of cause and effect.

DAVID: I don't care if I cannot follow every biologic change in my neurons. I am fully in control of the conclusions of my intentional actions.

Our discussion is not about whether you do or don’t have free will, but about the possibility that bacteria are autonomously intelligent. You argue that seemingly intelligent behaviour can in fact be automatic, i.e. dictated by in-built factors over which the doer has no control. You are convinced that YOU are in control, but others can argue that you are not. You are convinced that bacteria are not in control, but others can argue that they are. All you are doing in this discussion is telling me that in both cases you are right and they are wrong. Here are your other responses in relation to bacteria:

DAVID: But it is either-or, nothing else. all one can do is make an intelligent choice and every metabolic step in bacteria can be carefully outlined as molecules automatically react, without sign of mental direction.

Yes, it is either-or, but you are insisting that since intelligent behaviour CAN be interpreted as automatic, the “intelligent choice” is that they ARE automatic. So your choice is intelligent, whereas the choice made by Shapiro and others is what - stupid? A third intelligent choice might be to keep an open mind.

DAVID: Because all of its actions can be outlined in molecular automatic activity from start to finish.

Same again: it CAN be automatic, and therefore you have concluded that it IS automatic. All the actions of every organism including ourselves can be “outlined in molecular automatic activity”. The question is what LEADS to the actions, i.e. what processes make an organism decide to take a particular action. You somehow know that the actions of bats are based on mental processes, and you somehow know that the actions of bacteria are not.