particles and connections (General)

by dhw, Sunday, February 12, 2017, 09:00 (2840 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: God is conscious of everything we are conscious of and much more.
dhw: Presumably, then, before he created all the nice things and all the nasty things that you and I are conscious of, he knew exactly what was nice and what was nasty, and since - being the first cause - he created everything out of himself, it is not illogical to suppose that he himself is a mixture of nice and nasty. But I suspect you would rather not speculate on the possible implications of your God having created the nasty, and the nasty being "a part of him", and him being conscious of his nasty part.
DAVID: What you consider nasty God knew when He created. Plate tectonics make quakes sand tsunamis, but are required for life in Earth. Viruses advance evolution. He gave us big brains to solve the problems.

Just to clarify, then: God set out with the purpose of creating humans, but he couldn’t do it without creating weapons of mass destruction or without the millions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct whose purpose was to keep life going for the sake of humans. And his purpose in creating humans was to get them to solve problems, but we shouldn’t ask why, and he wants a relationship with us, but we shouldn’t ask what sort of relationship is possible if he and we have nothing in common and he hides himself in the quantum world.

DAVID: Of course conscious beings are more related than conscious beings and unconscious objects.
dhw: “Related” in what way? Do you mean similar? With more in common? Careful! Next thing you’ll be saying that the more conscious the being is, the more he has in common with your God.
DAVID: Don't tell me what to think. Of course a human is closer to God than an ape, who can't even think of such a possibility.

I was actually asking what you meant by “related”, because as I have said above, I don’t know what sort of relationship we can have with a God to whom we must not attribute any human qualities. In what way are we “closer” if we can’t get anywhere near him (he’s hidden) or near understanding him (no human attributes)? And in any case shouldn’t a relationship be two-way?

DAVID: The universe has two or perhaps more levels of reality. The quantum level contains God from which He interacts with the other layers and controls them. He created them from Himself.
dhw: How do you interact with part of yourself and yet not be present? (“All that IS is God’s creation and a part of him.”) Do you mean he operates by some kind of psychokinetic remote control on the parts of him that are outside his hiding place? That is hardly “interaction”. Besides, if we disregard the somewhat misleading term “virtual” as in virtual particles, are you now saying that the quantum world is immaterial? I apologize for the interrogation, but as I said, I am floundering and this is the only way I can de-flounder myself!

david: See Musser's article. Two parts.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160119-time-entanglement/?utm_source=Quanta+Magazine&a...

DAVID’s comment: The entire article needs to be read, and even then you will be confused. It can only be understood if one presumes the quantum connections and even particles may be on the other side of a semipermeable wall separating us from the quantum realm. In that way they can be closely connected, but there, not 'here'. God resides at the quantum level of reality, in my view. Space time is made from and based on that level.

Much as I appreciate the trouble you have taken to edit this article, it’s a pity you didn’t put your comment at the beginning! Of course I am still confused. So how does that help me? Even the scientists are confused. All they know is that these particles do not conform to their expectations of space and time, cause and effect, and they don’t understand it. What is now even more confusing is that I always imagined your God was an expert in making matter actually conform to the laws of space and time, and cause and effect, with his fine tuning of the universe and his brilliantly cohesive design of life and evolution, but apparently you think the weird behaviour of particles is a better guide to how he works. I did ask if you thought your God used psychokinesis to “control” the bits of himself that are separated-but-not-separated from himself – bearing in mind that he is immaterial and the matter he manipulates is material – and if you thought the quantum world was immaterial. Musser doesn’t answer these questions either.