particles and connections (General)

by dhw, Friday, February 10, 2017, 13:24 (2842 days ago) @ BBella

DAVID: I doubt very much he is inside inanimate objects. But He is control of the objects in the universe, such as galaxies with contents since He created the universe.
dhw: So just to clarify: “within and without” the universe and everything in it (which I understood as being the essence of panentheism) is almost certainly wrong, then. Your God is only “within” the living organisms we know on Planet Earth, and he simply manipulates matter from the outside, presumably by psychokinesis.
BBELLA:I would disagree with this, not because I know better, but just because logic tells me that if God were in the beginning and that's all that was, then anything made would be from that which was God; the fabric of God, if you will. That means to me, that God's consciousness may not be in all that IS, but what IS is all God. That does not minimize the aspects of that which is not alive as less than or it that which is evil as less than (God), it just means to me that God is not a person, God is all that IS. Either that, or that which we think of as God, has been made by all that IS along with everything else. To me, it can only be one or the other.

I hasten to point out that I am only trying to understand David’s arguments. He doubts that God is “inside” inanimate objects and believes he controls them – which can only mean that he is outside them. You have quite rightly pointed out that if David’s God was the first cause, he must have made ALL THAT IS out of himself, in which case ALL THAT IS is part of God. David agrees:
DAVID: I agree with you. God is everything in your sense, but He is also consciousness and is closely related to everything conscious. I agree He is not a person in the human sense. All that IS is God's creation and a part of Him.

I don’t think any of us seriously believe that God is a person – though if he is consciousness, his non-humanity certainly does not automatically mean that he is not and never was conscious of things that humans are conscious of, including attributes such as love, compassion, boredom, self-interest etc. “Closely related” is an odd phrase which could do with a bit more elaboration.

David, you identify yourself as a panentheist, the essence of which is that God is “within and without” ALL THAT IS. That is the concept I have been questioning in these exchanges. Your reply to me is:
DAVID: I would think He operates inside the universe adjusting its mechanics at a quantum level, which is where I think He is. I firmly believe He is hidden inside the quantum level of reality.

This, I must confess, leaves me floundering. If God is a universal consciousness, then either he is present at all levels of reality or he’s not. If he’s not, then how can he be within and without All THAT IS (which you say is a part of him)?

BBELLA: Also, I wanted to let you know I did a long, in depth reply to your question to me about my experience with interconnectedness, and it got lost when my computer froze (ugh!!!), so I will be answering that question asap. Thanks for your patience!

I’ll look forward to your reply, and I’m sorry your computer let you down. Sometimes connections just don’t work, do they?