Dualism (Identity)

by dhw, Tuesday, March 31, 2015, 18:00 (3524 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: ...you have said that when people die, their unconscious spirit returns to God, but the information that constitutes their identity (which must include consciousness) is contained in a back-up which will not be activated until the Resurrection. 
TONY: This is your first misunderstanding. Information, even memories, memories of previous thoughts, feelings, opinions, loves, heartaches... these things are not conscious. They are information which consciousness acts upon. -Thank you. I remember now, you said consciousness is only activated when the back-up is inserted into the dead body. However, this has repercussions on your version of Christ's resurrection (see later).-DHW: You say this [NDE] is the work of Satan, deliberately deceiving the patients, because the dead remain dead. -TONY: Two separate points here. Let's not confuse them. 
Point 1: The dead remain dead. They are conscious of nothing. 
Point 2: Satan is the father of the lie. The great deceiver. -Yes, I understand what a baddie he is. It is you who make the assumption in Point 1, and in the context of NDEs link it to Point 2!-Dhw: it is clear from your post that the communication made in these biblical “visions” is real. Peter, John and James did see Christ talking to Elijah and Moses, but not in the flesh. -TONY: Point1: Mark 12:27 "He (YHWH) is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
Point2: Elijah and Moses were not there in the flesh, that is correct. It was a vision.... as per the clarification given by Christ himself.-Visions, you have told us, entail seeing things mentally. That does not mean they are unreal. You have pointed out that they are “a waking dreamlike form of communication” frequently used by God himself. NDEs also say they perceive and communicate mentally, just as Christ apparently saw and communicated with the dead Elijah and Moses.
 
DHW: Did the conscious spirit of Christ really chat with his disciples three days after his death or not?
TONY: Christ was resurrected. Romans 6:9-Resurrected just means rose again (from the Latin resurgere, since you like derivations). Our question is in what form he rose again. You have stated categorically (27 March at 20.22) that “it was in a non-physical form”. That is what most of us would understand by the soul or spirit. But if, as above, the memory stick has to be inserted into the body before the dead person becomes conscious again, your non-physical Christ could not have been conscious. But he obviously was. Therefore, the non-physical form of a dead person can be conscious.
 
DHW: To return to our starting point: why do you assume that the same kind of encounter is a Satan-inspired illusion when it occurs in NDEs, even though it has been pointed out to you that the patients often believe themselves to be closer to the God you yourself believe in?
TONY: People believe a great many things, my friend, but let me answer your question with a question. With so many beliefs that are diametrically opposed, how many can be true? Lies are designed to satisfy the emotions. They are feel goods. They are easy to believe because we WANT to believe them. It feels GOOD etc.-Apart from what I find to be a very touching personal conclusion, the rest of your reply is a beautifully eloquent account of what and why people choose to believe or not to believe. Atheists would use the same argument about your “faith in God's love and mercy”. Instead of answering my question, you have simply added a second theory. So I'll rephrase the question: If the dead Christ's appearance to the disciples in a conscious non-physical form is acceptable to you, why should you assume that certain now God-loving patients, some with otherwise inaccessible information apparently gleaned from dead people in a conscious non-physical form, are (a) being misled by Satan, and/or (b) are misled by their own wishful thinking?