Dualism (Identity)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, March 21, 2015, 20:56 (3534 days ago) @ dhw

TONY: God Says: The dead are conscious of nothing. 
> If satan convinces someone of ANYTHING other than that, he has made god a liar.
> 
> David asked for quotations, and you offered Ecc 9:5,6,10 Psalms 146:3,4, Psalm 115:7.
> I don't even know if God exists...Your post takes us back to the old problem of authorship. My Oxford Companion to the Bible says of Ecclesiastes: “How this book found a place in the Hebrew canon remains a puzzle.” Well, some fallible human put it there, just as some fallible human decided the dead are conscious of nothing. (I'd better make the usual remark that I don't have a clue - I can only pick on points raised here.) The unknown author (David?) of the Psalms does say that human thoughts perish, but then he obviously didn't know that our thoughts survive in the backup you keep telling us about, so that doesn't count. Psalm 115, 7 deals with idols, so you've got the reference wrong there. A quick google reveals Luke 16, 19-31 for a parable in which the dead talk to the dead (as well as mentioning hell and, presumably by extension, heaven). Was this Mr. Satan putting a wacky idea into Jesus's head (or into Luke's, since he's our reporter)? Then there's Jesus himself who dies and comes to life again, and who also tells his crucified neighbour, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Not much of a promise if the guy isn't even going to know he's there.
> -I view the bible as the divinely inspired word of God. I have given you the litmus test for that. You disagree. We shall just have to agree to disagree. I never said that "thought survives", I said information survives. One is a noun, one is a verb. As for Luke, (a) it is a parable (which even you recognize) and (b) read it all the way to the end. The point of the whole parable was that, as I have said to you before, some people won't believe the truth, even if you brought someone back from the dead to prove it to them. -One article says:->By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
>Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one's fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
>What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
>What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
>In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.--->DHW> I never raised this subject, never commented, don't know why you raised it, and can't see its relevance to consciousness and the “spirit” and a possible afterlife.
> -It was relevant because you were talking about NDErs that converted, and asking what the harm could be or what Satan could hope to accomplish. -
>DHW: Who is talking about doing wrong? Is my sweet Mrs X, who loves God, Jesus and her neighbours, and never said boo to a goose, doing wrong because she hopes to go to heaven when she dies? I don't get the impression that Eben Alexander is now seeking to preach God and serve the Devil either.-(That part you didn't understand above was about your sweet Mrs. X) You always kind of seem to miss the forest for the trees. If you were given a road map, with a series of left and right turns to navigate, would you need to turn the opposite direction each time in order to get lost? No, you need only NOT turn in the correct direction. Satan doesn't have to get people to serve him, he only has to get people to either a) not serve god, or b) *think* they are serving god when in fact that are doing things detestable to him.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.