Dualism (Identity)

by dhw, Friday, March 27, 2015, 14:02 (3528 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: ...You have now attributed near-death experience of a conscious spirit to the work of Satan, and have offered biblical quotes in support of your argument. Among the quotes was Psalm 146, which appeared to contradict your belief in a memory stick containing all the information of the dead person. 
TONY: Not just NDE's. All instances of communication with dead spirits. -Psalm 146 still contradicts your belief in the memory stick. I gave you four biblical references to communication with dead spirits, including the parable in Luke (and I still find it odd that Jesus told such a story if he didn't believe in talking spirits, or heaven and hell). Matthew 17, 1-5 has Jesus chatting with Moses and Elijah (who turns out to have returned unrecognized as John the Baptist). In 1 Samuel, 28, Saul commands a medium to contact Samuel, which she does, and Samuel speaks to Saul. In Revelations, the souls of those slain for their beliefs call out to God to avenge them. Presumably, then, Matthew and the authors of Samuel and Revelations have been tricked by Satan - but then we can hardly say these texts are the Word of God, can we?-DHW: I also quoted the Bible as regards Jesus's neighbour on the cross, and it was you who quibbled over the comma and now refuse to tell me if this “crystal clear” version of God's word is the work of Satan. -TONY: You, as someone who has done translation work (unless I am mistaken) certainly know the difference a comma, or lack of one, can make. When translating, you have to take the context into account as well. Yes, as you said, the 'selection committees', particularly the council of Nicea and those that closely followed did influence things, as both politics and church doctrine did later. Within 2 centuries after Christ's death, the 'church' had become a political creature, and its various councils and decisions were made as much, if not more, based off of worldly political concerns than anything scriptural. This is a well known and documented fact, it is also the reason I do not trust some of the earlier translations of the Bibles which were influenced by church doctrine which was in turn influenced by politics. Translations since the dead sea scrolls were found are much more accurate.-I have indeed translated many books covering a vast range of subjects, and there is no doubt that a comma can change the meaning of a sentence. So why do you complain about “people trying to cherry pick commas to prove an otherwise scriptural doctrine, the meaning and intent is crystal clear”? I note that in my Watchtower translation of Samuel, the raised spirit is not referred to as Samuel, but as “Samuel”. Where did the translators get the inverted commas from? In Luke's account of Jesus's promise to his neighbour, as you pointed out, the word order and punctuation have been adjusted to completely change the meaning. I have asked you many times which version of the Bible is the Word of God. Now you are agreeing that some translations are not the Word of God. Thank you. Unless you are an expert in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, how can you even begin to judge the accuracy of any translation? Experts disagree anyway. Do you really think Jehovah's Witness translators are more objective and knowledgeable than any others?
 
DWH: I cited the not insignificant example of Jesus, who apparently died but appeared as himself to the disciples. You have never responded to this. -TONY: Christ was DEAD for three days prior to his resurrection to a spiritual form. While he was dead, he was not aware of anything. When he was resurrected, he did indeed inhabit a spiritual form. He was also the first person to ascend to heaven. (John 3:13) If all the dead go to heaven or hell, then that scripture would be a lie.-Nobody, including you, knows what happened to Christ during the three days after his physical death. I'm not sure what you mean by “resurrection to a spiritual form”. You have told us that the spirit returns to God without consciousness, which it only regains when the body has been resurrected and the memory stick inserted. So please clarify: did Jesus return from the dead, appear to the disciples (once apparently walking through walls, since the doors had been locked), and ascend to heaven in his own physical, memory-stick-reinforced body, or as a conscious spirit?
 
As always, I must repeat that I don't understand NDEs and have an open mind about their implications. What I am challenging is your assumption that the sometimes very moving stories of love and reunion (plus the acquisition of information they could not otherwise have known) are all part of Satan's evil plan to make people act AGAINST the very God they believe in and worship. You base this on texts which now even you have admitted are unreliable - apart from the JW translation, which apparently alone can claim to be the Word of God, though even then it can't avoid openness to different interpretations.