Re: dhw--Epistemological Framework (Belief) (Humans)

by dhw, Sunday, January 23, 2011, 19:17 (5052 days ago) @ xeno6696

I have suggested a definition of belief: "possession of information which is thought to be true by some but not all individuals who are aware of it." Matt has proposed four categories, but only one of his examples can be said to constitute a belief.-MATT: Maybe I should stay away from examples in the future... there is experiential belief. My friend Bill thinks that he has witnessed demons. (No joke.) On his part, this isn't faith. I accepted a common sense approach to knowledge, but it conflicts with situations like Bill's.-I have very few objections to your categories, but your examples show clearly that you haven't understood them yourself. Fortunately, the above is an excellent illustration of experiential belief (which is one of my own categories, as you will see if we ever get to the next phase of this discussion), and it's also an excellent illustration of my definition, though I'm happy to change this if you can come up with a better one. Firstly, in my effort to establish an epistemological framework for our discussions, I managed to get you to agree to my definition of knowledge: "possession of information that is accepted as being true by all those who are aware of it." The information that Bill has seen demons is not accepted by all those who are aware of it. Therefore it is not knowledge, and I don't know why you have brought knowledge into the discussion here. The information is thought to be true by Bill, perhaps by his nearest and dearest, perhaps by members of that famous US Society BIDAD (Believers in Devils and Demons) ... lots of people think they've seen angels as well ... but you (and I) and no doubt others who are aware of this information do not think it is true. And so according to my definition, the information that Bill has offered us (his sighting of demons) is not knowledge but belief.
 
MATT: I still classify belief into these 4 categories. I am not satisfied with the simplified version you offer. I retract my examples if that's what I have to do, but belief is a more complex entity than what your definition encompasses. If you want to simplify, belief is synonymous with raw faith?-You should indeed retract all but one of your examples! As far as your categories are concerned, they are very much in line with my own, though I would like to approach them from a different angle once we've agreed on a definition of belief.-David has come up with an alternative: "insistence that certain unsubstantiated phenomena are true." I like it, but "insistence" bothers me: it certainly fits some forms (Bill and his demons, perhaps; the dogmatism of some politicians, some religious folk, some scientists), but it doesn't describe the gentle dhw's belief that evolution happened, that humans are born with certain innate characteristics, that animals are sentient. (I would not call any of these "faith" either.) Nor would I call these beliefs of mine phenomena. I wonder why neither of you is prepared to accept that faith is a form of belief containing information thought to be true by some and not by others, as this seems to be your only objection to my proposal. Would you at least agree to accepting it temporarily, so that we can move on?