near to death episodes: latest study (Endings)

by David Turell , Monday, October 30, 2017, 16:54 (2579 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: At this point the patient is permanently brain dead, and consciousness has gone to the afterlife. In the 4-6 minute period after blood and oxygen delivery is stopped, before neuron death, you are correct. Consciousness could be received there, but how would a non-functioning network of neurons handle it? You are saying it an function without evidence of function, either physically or by EEG.

dhw: There is nothing to “handle”. A materialist can argue that the evidence of function is the patient’s awareness of what went on around him/her during the 4-6 minutes when the cortex could still register events even though it had lost connection with the rest of the body.

The materialist cannot argue against EEG evidence. The cortex is not registering any sensory input or other functions. The 4-6 minute interval covers a time of unconsciousness until neuron death. The cortex stops function by 20 seconds, not functional for 4-6 minutes. Period. The cortex is accepted as the seat of consciousness. Therefore tell me what is conscious during an NDE? NO ONE knows! The NDE research folks understand this point. It is why Parnia is fiercely pursuing the issue.

DAVID: The brief agonal burst is just for a few seconds. You are trying to stretch it. Resuscitation events can last 20-30 minutes (I've been there), and revived patients can then tell us about the NDE.

dhw: Thank you for the information about the agonal burst. In that case, I don’t understand why the researchers attach so much importance to it, since it proves nothing.

Not nothing. It shows the brain can try to function without oxygen.

dhw: As for the rest, I can only repeat what I wrote last time: “the researchers claim that the patients must have been conscious for a few minutes after what they regarded as clinical death. If the cortex continues to function for 4-6 minutes and is where “consciousness is conducted”, and patients register information for 4-6 minutes, and the information relates to events that occur during the 4-6 minutes after clinical death, the implication is that consciousness does NOT end after 20 seconds or less, and that the cortex is the source of consciousness. Only when the cortex ceases to function, and the patient undergoes experiences that can later be authenticated can we say that we have evidence of dualism.”

If the events described by the patients took place AFTER the death of the cortex, then they are evidence for dualism. The article tells us about events immediately after heart stoppage. We therefore need more information about the timing before we can talk of evidence.

You are pursuing a dead horse! After cortical death, the surviving patient is brain dead, living on lower centers only. He cannot communicate anything. I had one resuscitation patient who survived but lost a substantial portion of mental capacity. He went to a nursing home to care for him as he couldn't. What the patients who fully survive describe are events than occur during resuscitation which can last 20-40 minutes. The resuscitation effort brings back EEG activity in 4-6 minutes, but the patient is unconscious because of the event. Think of the Dutch patient of van Lommel, brought in unconscious who asked the next day about his teeth and knew the nurse who took them out. Resuscitation provides a low level of oxygen to the brain which preserves the cortex at an unconscious level. How the patient is aware of surroundings is the issue. No one knows how they know what they describe when revived.