Ontological Arguments (Humans)

by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Monday, September 27, 2010, 22:06 (5170 days ago) @ David Turell


> > > The best ontologic argument is that last paragraph!
> > 
> > lol, David, this wasn't an ontological argument at all! He was informing me that experience itself is something that cannot be encapsulated into language!
> 
> I know that, but it is still the best agument for God. 
> > 
> > I fear I wasn't specific enough when asking why Materialism was wrong; I've long known that science isn't suited for exactly the kinds of things that dhw talked about here, but my question is driving at epistemology and why materialism is wrong in those terms, and not in the terms that are technically "beyond" epistemology.
> 
> That is the exact problem. Trying to get at God removes materialism from the stage. Science cannot handle consciouness with those feelings it engenders as discussed by dhw.-So then, God escapes critical study by then vanishing into a cloud of consciousness? Sorry, it's not that simple. Any physical explanation that relies on God has to account for how a "mental" being in this case created the physical world. We return to an old claim of mine that ONLY an extreme deism serves as a valid explanation of what we have observed in terms of God. -Here is the challenge to the theists:-Any valid theistic foundation of the universe must account for how something that is claimed to be "unknowable" in the physical world can change and/or alter the physical world. This question can be alternately phrased as "How does the physical universe come into existence by means of mind?"[EDITE
D]
If God interfaces with the physical world at all then there will be a way to detect it. -This question at present seems just as insoluble as the consciousness problem posed to materialism, and is a prime motivation behind what has become my (surprisingly resolute) agnosticism.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"