A possible God's possible purpose and nature (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by dhw, Saturday, July 17, 2021, 13:54 (1017 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: What does not make sense is that if humans plus lunch were his one and only goal, and he is all-powerful etc., why would he design all the life forms etc. that had no connection with humans plus lunch? You have no idea why, and so you keep dodging the question.

DAVID: Humans were an endpoint for God, not your tunnel-visioned interpretation of His thoughts.

Throughout this discussion, you have repeated that humans were his goal from the very start, and you have even claimed that every life form was “part of the goal of evolving [= designing] humans” (plus our lunch). It is YOUR tunnel vision that is under scrutiny. The word endpoint is an obfuscation, since it can simply mean the last thing to be produced. No one would argue that at least so far, sapiens are the latest arrivals. That does not, of course, mean that everything else existed only for the sake of humans plus lunch.

DAVID: I have always viewed your take as desiring God to do direct creation. Why He wanted us to appear as a the result of evolution and why He chose to evolve us as His choice of method, each of us can only guess at. That 'I have no idea why' does not negate the theory.

It is not just his choice to “evolve us”. According to you, “evolve” means specially design - he designs every stage from common ancestor to us – but he also chose to “evolve” (= specially design) every other life form that preceded us although, according to you, his only purpose was to evolve (= specially design) us plus lunch. You don’t know why he would have chosen such an illogical way of reaching his one and only goal, but sometimes you insist that it is logical, and at other times you simply edit your theory by leaving out one or other of these conflicting beliefs. I do not “desire” God to do anything. I have offered you three alternative theories to explain why he did NOT create humans directly, you accept that they are logical, but you reject them because they entail “humanizations” that are different from your own.

dhw: The fact that all three options can be mimicked by humans does not answer my question why you consider them all to be weak, wishy-washy and bumbling.

DAVID: Your theories about God as expressed above create a personality for a God who comes across to me as you state: "weak, wishy-washy and bumbling". That is the picture I imagine. Sorry, but you can't change my mind. My vision of God and His actions is totally different.

It is not a picture but a judgement. You would not use such insulting terms to describe an experimental scientist, inventor, or artist, and it is a totally irrational way of trying to wriggle out of the fact that you yourself agree that each of the theories explains the bush of past life which you cannot explain.

DAVID:[…] My point is we cannot know if He is human in any way at all. This results in our separate visions of God as totally different.

dhw: Nobody can possibly know God’s nature, and so you have no right to claim that you “know God is not human in any way”. That claim becomes doubly absurd when you also tell us you are sure we humans “mimic him in many ways”. You are sure we do, but you know we don’t! It’s time you dropped this whole “humanizing” argument, since it is impossible to discuss God’s nature without speculating on attributes that we may have inherited from him (if he exists).

DAVID: Please stick with "nobody can know God's nature". That is true, beyond any doubt.

Of course it’s true. That is why it is totally absurd for you claim that you “know God is not human in any way”.

DAVID: As a result I try as little humanizing as possible. Realize all the rest is guesswork, and we can go on discussing guesswork if you wish but it is not productive especially since we both view God's personality so differently.

Your guesswork includes your certainty that we mimic your God in many ways although you know that we do not mimic him in any way, a theory of evolution which makes no sense even to you, the dismissal of alternative theories which make perfect sense to you, and it continues all the way through to the very existence of God, plus his good intentions. All our theories and all everybody else’s theories can be regarded as guesswork, since nobody knows the truth, and if they are therefore “not productive”, we may as well stop all discussions and all theorizing. You would never have joined this website if you thought that discussing the different “guesses” was unproductive, or perhaps you still haven’t cottoned on to the fact that your own theories are “guesses”!