Intelligence & Evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Sunday, November 17, 2013, 13:59 (4023 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: The problem, of course, is the beginning of individualized consciousness ... but that's no more of a convolution than the never-beginning consciousness of your God. 
DAVID: It is really a mystery, how any degree of consciousness arose. But we have it. Could an inorganic universe develop it without creating life and our powerful minds? I don't think an inorganic universe, by itself, could ever do that.-Yes, it's a mystery, whichever way you look at it. How can anyone believe that the intricacies of life assembled themselves without any guidance? How can anyone believe that, before the arrival of our universe, the ALL THAT IS consisted of a single, infinite, eternal self-aware mind? It's enough to drive you to agnosticism.-DAVID: One problem with your reply is lack of a source for information. Where does the information originate that intelligence then uses? Imagine an initial living cell. It must develop some way to sense food sources and using that information then learn responses to get the food. It is a chicken/egg situation from the beginning. It means the initial cells were more complete and more complex than origin of life theories generally allow for.-Yes again, the cell has to be sentient as well as intelligent. I'm glad you now recognize that individual cells need to have both attributes. But once more you are asking me to explain what no-one on this Earth can explain ... the origin of life and of consciousness.-DAVID: As for the second part, the ant is either intelligent or behaves as if it is, and the simple answer we can't really tell. But on observaatin of ant or bee societies, the roles of the various types of insects are so rigid, it all looks like instinct. You want to get the ants and bees to think their way there from simpler beginnings. I think it is more logical to assume they worked from a framework of plans. Termite mound, bee hives, and wasps nests always look exactly the same.-There are all kinds of ants and all kinds of ant societies, depending on the environment they have to cope with, but of course once a system has been found to work, it will remain the same. Basically, heart cells, liver cells, kidney cells etc. also conform to a pattern. But first, just like every strategy and every lifestyle, they have to be invented, and your concept of evolution therefore still lumbers you with your God having to load the first few cells with billions of programmes to be handed down over billions of years to billions of different organisms. Those that were not preprogrammed had to be specially created. I agree that the initial cells had to be complex, but do you really believe they were THAT complex?