Intelligence & Evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Saturday, October 12, 2013, 15:09 (4059 days ago)

Dhw: (under "Emergence") [...] which of your two statements do you now adhere to? 1) "Consciousness involves self-awareness at the human level", or 2) "Animals are conscious but generally not self-aware and therefore do not have the type of consciousness that we have." -DAVID: Both. For me they are consistent.-My clever daughter pointed out the ambiguity in Statement 1), and you are right ... taken out of context the statements are consistent. The context, however, is that you 'still stick to "aware that you are aware"', plus your insistence that consciousness involves the ability to analyse concepts, formulate new theories, and think abstractly like Higgs. This shows that you do not accept that an organism is conscious unless it has a human level of self-awareness. -However, "Human consciousness involves self-awareness", or "consciousness at the human level involves self-awareness" would certainly be consistent with Statement 2, and this negates your previous definition of consciousness. Since you regard the statements as consistent, I can only assume you now acknowledge that there are different types of consciousness. Presumably, then, you will accept that an organism which is capable of absorbing, processing, assessing and exchanging information, communicating with other organisms, making decisions and solving problems is conscious, though its consciousness is different from ours and does not involve self-awareness, formulating new theories, or abstract thinking like that of Higgs. -David (under "Cell Memories"): Your complaint about my approach to this problem comes from the fact that I look at what science tells us about the biochemistry of the cell and how they communicate. Then for me Full Stop...But I can't fathom your insistence that individual cells can sit and plan things together. -It is not an insistence. I offer it as an alternative hypothesis to the (equally?) dubious hypotheses of random mutations and divine preprogramming.
 
DAVID: If they carry (unknown to us) a smidgen of the universal consciousness, then it is that overall entity which is really doing the planning... You can't have it both ways: independent 'intelligent cells' only show biochemical communication at our level of reality. -You continue to focus on HOW they communicate instead of considering WHAT they communicate. Evolutionary innovation can only come about if the cells cooperate to combine in new ways. This involves processing and exchanging information, taking decisions, solving problems. There is no way round this, and it is what happens even in your divinely preplanned scenario ... the cells assemble in new combinations, and that means they cooperate etc. The issue is the extent to which they themselves are able to use the information in order to create something new ... much as the first ant colonies were able to create their amazing feats of engineering and architecture. According to your own hypothesis, God preprogrammed every innovation, every decision, into the very first organisms, and perhaps even every environmental change (apart from the occasional dabble), and magically the cells automatically logged onto precisely the right programme (out of billions) at the right time to create legs, lungs and livers. How credible is this?
 
DAVID: To do what you want they must be operating at a quantum level carrying the consciousness that the article shows might be present. But if quantum consciousness is what is going on at their level, then they are joined by a universal consciousness which is what I propose. What underlies our perceived reality is the quantum world. To me it is obvious that a "concealed God" is hidden there and creates the reality we have.-What do you mean by "quantum consciousness", and being "joined by" a universal consciousness? We humans are conscious and are also conscious of being conscious. What is the difference between that and our "quantum consciousness"? If you really think consciousness is not possible without being "joined by" a universal consciousness (= your God), and a concealed God "creates the reality we have" (as well as "pervading everything"), you might as well say that our own consciousness is actually God's consciousness, and we are automatons capable only of thinking his thoughts. And you might also say that your God is present in every cell, taking all the necessary decisions, and therefore the cell is intelligent because, just like our own, its intelligence IS God.