Intelligence & Evolution (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, October 13, 2013, 21:31 (4057 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: Having a conscious state to me means being conscious. I am the one who keeps emphasizing that there are different levels of consciousness, whereas you insist that there is only one ... the human level! That is why I prefer the word "intelligence", in order to avoid this confusion.-Prefer what you wish, but I am discussing the different types of conscious beings. Human consciousness involve self awareness and analytic thought. My dog, or chimps, are conscious and have a slight degree of consciousness in that they can do some simple future planning. My dog brings a ball. He is planning to play. There is a vast difference. 
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> dhw: I can only assume you now acknowledge that there are different types of consciousness. Presumably, then, you will accept that an organism which is capable of absorbing, processing, assessing and exchanging information, communicating with other organisms, making decisions and solving problems is conscious, though its consciousness is different from ours and does not involve self-awareness, formulating new theories, or abstract thinking like that of Higgs. -I'll agree with that statement. For organisms, not for single cells or groups of cells.-> 
> dhw;I have no problem accepting that we operate on a different level. But if you insist that only humans are conscious, then of course by your definition not even animals and plants can qualify, let alone cells!-See my clarification above-> 
> dhw: It is not an insistence. I offer it as an alternative hypothesis to the (equally?) dubious hypotheses of random mutations and divine preprogramming.-I know you do, because you have no other choice but to invent a spurious middle ground to avoid the only available choices.
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> dhw: According to your own hypothesis, God preprogrammed every innovation, every decision, into the very first organisms, and perhaps even every environmental change (apart from the occasional dabble), and magically the cells automatically logged onto precisely the right programme (out of billions) at the right time to create legs, lungs and livers. How credible is this?-If you accept theistic evolution, as I do, then it is credible for me. You have your fence.->
> Free will and human evil are another subject, and I don't feel that either of us is in a position to read your God's mind. However, I'm glad you find reasonable the suggestion that he is present in every cell, and therefore the cell is intelligent because its intelligence IS God. Clearly then you are not opposed to the concept in principle, so long as we put God in there.-God has to be there. And you are correct. I don't try to read His mind.