Intelligence (Origins)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, March 23, 2013, 17:53 (4261 days ago) @ dhw

DHW: Like David, I think something must have been here forever, and it seems all three of us are agreed that it is energy. We also agree that energy can transmute itself into matter, and that prior to "creation" or to "the big bang" (or whatever else you believe) there was "all the time in eternity" for that energy to operate. The first cause for all of us, then, is energy that has had forever to produce infinite combinations of matter. What follows on from that is pure conjecture. -Pretty much, though some conjecture is more logical than others. ->DHW: If by "single entity" you mean first-cause energy (what else could you mean?), either it was always conscious of itself, or it evolved consciousness, or it never had any consciousness of its own. -Yes.->DHW: "Grow to organization" is a wonderfully vague expression which could cover all three hypotheses we've been discussing: a materialist can just as easily claim that through an eternity and infinity of random combinations, matter "grew to organization".-
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> "It is infinitely easier to organize energy than it is to organize matter" is another impressive pronouncement, but what does it mean? What is supposed to do the organizing? Do you mean it's easier for energy to organize energy than for energy to organize matter? What has energy organized itself into, other than the material universe we know? Or are you trying to say that it's easier for energy to become conscious of itself than it is for matter? If so, how do you know?
> -Damn. You had to drop the ball... and you were doing so well! Energy is fundamentally different than matter. Energy is eternal, matter is not. Information and Energy can coexist in a constant state of flux indefinitely without any outside input. Matter can not. Matter is entirely incapable of becoming conscious at all without the introduction of information and energy. Both are requirements, neither can be omitted. ->DHW: The only consciousness we know of is our own, and experience shows us that we can lose that consciousness when the materials of the brain are interfered with.-No, ours is simply the only conscious we openly acknowledge consistently. We are well aware of other forms of consciousness, though we only acknowledge them as such when it suits us. If we know that lower forms of consciousness exists, then it stands to reason that there is a very good probability that a higher form exists. -
>DHW: A materialist will therefore argue that consciousness must be a product of materials. -And I would tell the materialist to discharge all energy, electrical and chemical, from the brain, leaving only the matter, and show me consciousness.-
>DHW: Others can point to psychic phenomena like NDEs and OBEs, which suggest that consciousness is independent of materials.-Yes, energy. More importantly, energy can interact with the material and affect changes. (Solid State Memory for example)->DHW: Nobody in fact has a clue about the origin of consciousness or of life. -We have lot's of clues. It is too our discredit that we choose to ignore them. ->DHW: If you opt for one hypothesis in preference to another, you can rationalize as much as you like, but you cannot exclude the objections raised by the other side. -That would depend on the objection. See, my world view does not technically exclude the possibility of evolution in some form, or that gradual naturalistic processes may have been used to get everything going. However, the naturalistic world view DOES preclude the possibility of any outside intelligence. Hrmmmm.->DHW: You can only say, as you have done, "I am as ignorant [...] as it is possible to be." I would say we are all equally ignorant about all these fundamental questions, which is why I find it so hard to emulate those who, to use your expression, are able to "fabricate their own reality."-But you do! In your reality, everything is unknown and unknowable, and therefore it is impossible for you to take a stand for anything until all things have been revealed in their entirety(i.e. never). You have asked me numerous times very pointed questions about my world view and beliefs, and now, I am going to ask you one, and only one. -DHW, why do you find it impossible to take a leap of faith, in one direction or the other, instead of sitting on the fence getting a sore crotch?

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.