Love me or else (Part Two) (Where is it now?)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Monday, December 24, 2012, 20:52 (4353 days ago) @ BBella

Bella: If there are beings that created us, and if they have been watching over us as our God/s, guiding us as children in some sense, and they too, being a much older race of beings than we, evolved, then who is to say they are speaking for creation (The All That Is)? Why would creation itself have to even come from a God or have a creator in the first place? Maybe creation has always been and always will be, and is made up of such a malleable fabric that evolution and What Is and has become, is a natural product of it. 
> -I *think* I understand where you are coming with this. The Sephirothic Tree of Life in the Qabala details something very similar in it's depiction of the Ain and Ain Soph. In that depiction, what you refer to as 'All That Is' is nebulous, having no form, purpose, intelligence, personality, infinite and unknowable. God, Ain Soph, was the the product of self-realization, awakening to awareness, the prime movement, first thought, or first emination. In short, it is not so much that nothing was prior to God as much as it is that it is impossible to speculate upon it. Again, this is according to the Qabala and specifically to the Zohar Tradition. -The Zohar explains the term "Ein Sof" as follows:
"	Before He gave any shape to the world, before He produced any form, He was alone, without form and without resemblance to anything else. Who then can comprehend how He was before the Creation? Hence it is forbidden to lend Him any form or similitude, or even to call Him by His sacred name, or to indicate Him by a single letter or a single point. . . . But after He created the form of the Heavenly Man, He used him as a chariot wherein to descend, and He wishes to be called after His form, which is the sacred name 'YHWH'.[1]-
> Bella: Of course there is no way for either of us to know for sure. But the evidence, for me, balances a bit more to the side that if there is a God, within and without all that is, that God would have no need to use surrogates to speak to us, if he even needed to speak at all, as that God would be us. -I find it interesting that YHWH is only detailed as using a surrogate for face to face viewing. There is no barrier for direct communication as it He is detailed as communicating with humans directly on a number of occasions, either vocally, in dreams, or, as in the case of Moses, directly. Though that experience left Moses glowing, literally, and scared all the people. Perhaps it is simply a case of it being more effort than it is worth to contain himself(his energies) to a point that it would not cause us physical/mental damage. Or maybe, if you believe the texts, it is because that is the way he has it set up. You don't get to the king without going through the intermediaries. -
>Bella: Even those of old who made and fulfilled prophecies and such, told of a time we would come to realize we no longer need guidance and/or teachers, as we would understand/know more about ourselves and the creative properties from which we have sprung. 
> > -Even Genesis hints that weaning us was part of the initial plan, until we decided that we knew better than the boss.-> 
> Organized or not, does not necessarily mean there is an organizer or creator of it. Creation, itself, may have always just been. Yes, we have been told there is a creator God, but is that creator God just a part of creation itself? There still remains that possibility. 
> 
There is not any biblical claim (that I am aware of) that YHWH was not 'born' so to speak, or that he is apart from the nature of creation. It simply says 'time indefinite to time indefinite' or, translated literally, 'time unknowable'. As for being 'apart' from creation, it would violate one of the meanings of his name, which is unity.
 -> Bella: The beauty as well as the horror, of all that we see, no doubt may have been created literally just for us. Whether it has or hasn't, I have faith that it was for good intent, as it would be difficult for me to sleep at night if I didn't. But I also believe that those who created this "paradise" gone wrong, can make it disappear in a moment. Not because they are creation that made this possible, but because they made it possible the very same way our scientist or creators, here on earth, do the same everyday. By taking "What Is" and manipulating it for a purpose. I can only hope their purpose is for our best.-I do not disagree with this statement at all (I think). I have faith it was for good intent. I have faith that it was done through 'natural' processes, as that is the only possible way it could have been done. (i.e. unnatural does not exist within nature, it is an oxymoron) There is also no biblical evidence contradicting what you say, that I am aware of. The bible doesn't claim that anything was just *poofed* into existence from nothingness.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.