Afterlife (Introduction)

by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Friday, December 02, 2011, 02:49 (4741 days ago) @ dhw

MATT: Again, in modern writing, I have not seen any reference, either from Shakyamuni, nor of his disciples that discuss of an afterlife in any traditional manner that I am accustomed to. (Buddhism in the 17th century is NOT the Buddhism of today.)

You clearly know far more about the subject than I do, so please put me right. Firstly, you say you have “read the works of Buddha Shakyamuni”. I was always under the impression that his teachings had been passed on orally and only written down hundreds of years later.

This is true. My introduction to Buddhism was a book by Thich Nhat Hahn. He opened the book with: "Buddha was a man and not a God." This idiom has been repeated by the Dalai Llama. Thich Nhat Hanh describes how all the original teachings we now know, were known only to a single monk--who was very arrogant. So we have an admonition immediately from him that we cannot trust the writings immediately. (Talk about a breath of fresh air compared to our Abrahamic traditions...)

A true Buddha teaching must be tested. You must put it into practice and observe it making you more harmonious. If it doesn't work, set it aside and try a different one.

Like yourself, I’m used to the traditional view of samsara as the cycle of death and rebirth, and karma as the effects of past deeds on the present life. If this didn’t arise from the teachings of the Buddha himself and/or his disciples, have you any idea how it did arise? And what is the modern interpretation of samsara and karma, or have these concepts been dropped altogether?

Buddha's teaching was a huge paradigm shift in Hindu thinking. He taught that the wheel of repetition could be broken by solid realizations in the present. While I can't put words into the mouth of Shakyamuni... modern Buddhist thought does not seem to believe in anything other than the present. The writings of Hanh, Llama, Dogen, Suzuki, and the American master Steve Hagen reach a consensus of thought that I have never before seen in a religious tradition. Samsara and Karma, from the writings of Llama and Hanh only speak of death and rebirth within our own life... I've seen nothing to suggest a thought of a literal death and rebirth in the traditional Hindu sense... which makes sense because Shakyamuni preached severance from reincarnation. (Buddha reallly was the Christ of Hinduism, if you want to understand his revolutionary nature.)

You also mentioned the Dalai Lama, who traditionally was believed to be a reincarnation of previous dalai lamas. Had the tradition already died when he was chosen?

Buddhism has been a unique experience in that it's the only time where I've seen the leadership... kindly speak negatively about their followers.

You need to read his books: he *never* makes mention of an afterlife in a non-allegorical sense, and all of his discussions in regards to reincarnation and the wheel of Dharma are always focused on your life here and now... never on a future life. If he means for an afterlife in the traditional western sense, he leaves this out of his writings.

In the forward to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Dalai Llama directly calls the gods "psychological states." The fact that the book was originally esoteric--meant only for disciples who had mastered a certain level of understanding--underlines the importance of the allegorical nature.

Tibetan Buddhism is complex, but the rebirth isn't taken literally by its leaders. Remember I told you that Buddhism holds that our consciousness isn't limited to ourselves, that ultimately, the self is illusion. (Many parallels with Jung, actually.) The manifestation of a Llama is kind of a cosmic re-emergence of the Buddha's essence... not in personality or in personage, but a living incarnation of Buddha-nature.

Sorry to quiz you, but although I do find it hard to keep up with the 21st century, I’m genuinely surprised to find that I’m still only in the 17th century!

I wasn't meaning to say YOUR understanding was there... but the most intriguing NDE story for me was Lingza Chokyi.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"