More Miscellany (General)

by dhw, Wednesday, April 24, 2024, 09:25 (211 days ago) @ David Turell

The wild Milky Way center

DAVID: I think it is all by reasoned design.

dhw: You cannot find any reason why your God would design billions of galaxies and trillions of stars (not to mention millions of irrelevant species) when all he wanted to design was a single system to accommodate us and our food.

DAVID: God has reasons I am not privy to.

dhw: Your inability to think of any reason once more illustrates the fact that most of your beliefs (apart from your argument for a designer God) are based on irrational faith, so please stop pretending that they are logical.

DAVID: What do you want? That I can think like God.

No, I want you to stop pretending that your God must think like you, as in your belief that the billions of galaxies are by “reasoned design” in order to produce us, although you can’t think why. However, you have agreed that your beliefs (other than in the existence of God) are based on irrational faith and on what you wish your God to be, so we can leave it at that.

Microbiomes and post-surgical infections (now theodicy and boredom)

dhw: Why did you “blame” [God] for the bugs? Why do you not blame him for knowingly allowing rape, murder, the Holocaust, although he must have known as you and I do that it is perfectly possible to lead a non-boring life without anyone committing evil? [See below re moral justification.]

DAVID: The necessary bugs are free to get into trouble. It is the way life has to work.

dhw: Yes, we know they were free to kill 50 million people in 1918, just as Hitler was free to kill 6 million Jews. And your omniscient God must have known what would happen when he gave them their freedom. Now will you please answer the bolded questions.

DAVID: Answered, For life to work, free bugs have to exist!!! You are alive, accept it and stop complaining.

I am not complaining. Now would you please answer the two bolded questions: 1) why “blame” for the bugs, and 2) why not “blame” for allowing evil in order to alleviate his and our boredom?

dhw: I’m sure you’ll agree that your God, who you believe is interested in his creations, would find puppets pretty boring.

DAVID: Exactly!

dhw: And so he gave us free will because he would have found puppets boring. A very reasonable theory, which you have confirmed. What’s the problem?

DAVID: Answered, For life to work, free bugs have to exist!!! You are alive, accept it and stop complaining.

Once more: I am not complaining. You believe that your God created or allowed evil in order to relieve himself and us of boredom. It fits in with life’s history. But it raises a moral problem, as below, which you keep refusing to answer:

dhw: Please tell us if you regard the Holocaust and the 50 million flu victims as secondary and morally justified by the fact that such evil relieves us from being bored.

DAVID: Not the direct effect you tout. Humans are free to cause evil.

You believe your omniscient God gave us that freedom, knowing that it would lead to rape, murder and holocausts, in order to relieve his and our boredom. Do you think he was morally justified in doing so?

A new consciousness declaration

QUOTE:“The empirical evidence indicates at least a realistic possibility of conscious experience in all vertebrates (including all reptiles, amphibians and fishes) and many invertebrates (including, at minimum, cephalopod mollusks, decapod crustaceans and insects.) (dhw's bold)

DAVID: there is no question animals are aware, perform purposeful activities and also can play. What they lack, as my bold notes, is self-awareness.

dhw: I don’t think anyone would argue that our fellow creatures have the same degree of awareness/self awareness that we humans have. The whole point is that they can think for themselves, which suggests that they can design their own lifestyles, strategies and modes of survival. What else would they use their consciousness for? I would also draw attention to “including, at minimum….” You have now published articles which completely support Shapiro’s belief that even individual cells have a degree of consciousness. Many thanks as always for your integrity in presenting all these articles.

DAVID: You are welcome. But consciousness does not create speciation.

I thought we'd agreed that it does, unless you believe in blind chance. But you think that only your God’s consciousness can do it, and it is unthinkable that even though he gave consciousness to our fellow animals, birds and insects, he might have done the same for single cells and their communities.

DAVID: Consciousness is more common than previously realized.

I’m glad the message is gradually getting through to you.