philosophy of science: meaning and functions (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, October 03, 2018, 11:54 (2243 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: According to you he ended his isolation by creating the universe and life in all its many forms extant and extinct. He must have had a reason for doing so. Once more: why do you find it illogical to suggest that he might have been bored with his isolation?

DAVID: My view is that God has never been alone. Note my constant position that God always existed and made one universe after another. Why should we be the only one in an eternity of time?

dhw: No matter how many material universes and humans (see below) he created, as first cause pure energy (according to you) he must still have preceded their creation and had a motive for creating them.

DAVID: As both Tony and I have told you boredom is a human emotion. You cannot leave his human level, which He has but much more.

The desire for a relationship, for enjoyment, to prove oneself is also human. So what? Only an idiot would deny that if he exists he must have much greater power and intelligence than we have, but the point here is that both Tony and you agree he DOES have human thoughts and logic.

DAVID: Each iteration of a universe has an evolution of creatures and He may be interested in seeing how each group works out their existence. He is not experimenting but observing. Will each set of humans appreciate their chance at life. How will they conduct themselves and approach Him?

If, in this divine-fiction story you are now imagining, he creates each universe to "see how" each set of humans responds, he is both experimenting and observing the spectacle he has created, and his particular interest in their approach to himself sounds delightfully human to me.

DAVID: Not chickening out, but showing you He thinks at our level and also much higher.

So he can be bored, but his level of boredom is much higher than ours.

DAVID: Sentient beings recognize Him and their free will makes them a little unpredictable, so interesting to follow.

Precisely. He has created a spectacle that he can observe with interest. Unpredictability (as provided by the comings and goings of life’s history) is an integral part of the spectacle to keep his interest, and human unpredictability provides a more interesting spectacle than anything else in life’s history. And what would you say is the opposite of “interesting”?

DAVID: I don’t think formless energy plasma can develop intelligence and consciousness on its own.

dhw: But you do think that formless energy already had omniscient intelligence and consciousness which came from nowhere.

DAVID: I'll stick with the undeniable logic that a designer is required. It is what made me a believer.

But please explain why you think formless energy plasma can’t develop intelligence and consciousness, whereas pure energy can.

DAVID: All we see did not come from pure nothing; first cause required.

Agreed. That does not explain how pure energy can be conscious whereas formless energy plasma can’t. And just to reiterate, first cause can be a mindless and eternal combination and recombination of energy and matter.

DAVID: as if we are made to be in an image like Him, we must imagine Him to be limited to human thinking. Doesn't make sense to imagine Him so limited when he creates a universe that is fine-tuned for life and then developed a life form that could be evolved into conscious beings like Himself.

dhw: Why are you talking of “limits”? We are discussing why he would have created the universe and life forms that could be “conscious like Himself”. You have proposed that he wants a relationship, wants us to wonder, wants to prove himself to us. And then you complain because ending the boredom of isolation is “humanizing”.

DAVID: 'Limits' comes from you ascribing Him human feelings like boredom.

So why do you “limit” him by ascribing to him the desire to see how we will approach him, to have a relationship with us, to prove himself to us? You keep agreeing that he can have human thoughts and feelings, and then you chicken out again because although you think he can be interested, you don’t think he can be bored.

DAVID: His thoughts are full of His purposes of creating a life bearing universe and the evolution of its inhabitants. Have you ever created a new play or novel out of boredom? I doubt it.

Once again: with your apparent insight into his mind, you had him observing with interest what we are doing, and how we approach him, and presumably he also watched with interest the spectacle of the billions of pre-human life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders coming and going. But now apparently his only purpose was to create the spectacle without any reason for doing so!

As for me, if I were starving to death, I would not look for food out of boredom. But humans have also created a vast range of activities (that’s what makes us so interesting) which we can enjoy when we do not have to fight for our survival. I doubt if your God had to fight for survival, so what activities could he enjoy?