philosophy of science: meaning and functions (Introduction)

by David Turell , Saturday, September 29, 2018, 15:13 (2246 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I’m afraid abandoning the word “design” still leaves us with the equally endless argument of where did it come from. David’s answer is the usual philosophical cop-out:

DAVID: There is no designer of God if He is eternal, which is my view. First cause by definition is 'first'.

dhw: But by definition it does not have to be God. It can be an impersonal and unconscious universe of energy and matter. The fact that you disagree does not make “first cause” an argument for God.

What makes an argument for God are the obvious requirements for a thinking mind: an explanation for fine tuning, the origin of life, and the complexity of living biology , all of which requires you to imagine a 'unconscious impersonal universe' which becomes a designer of living matter and consciousness.

TONY: 2 (a) Any designer(s) must have a frame of reference upon which to base their design(experience).)

dhw: This can only mean that your designer has created life before, and before, and before… Impossible to imagine – as are eternity and infinity.

TONY: Not really. If you experience your own life, then you have a frame of reference to draw from.

dhw: This is what I use in my efforts to understand the workings of God’s mind (if he exists), but David rejects such an approach, and I’m not sure that you approve either. As for imagining eternity and infinity, there is nothing in my own life that can give me a frame of reference.

And there is nothing in your life to give you a frame of reference to God. He has to be imagined from what we know He has presented. Like the Wizard of Oz, He is the man behind the curtain. Why do you think Adler warns about the difference in His personality as He starts his book?

DHW (to David): Why would he want to have a relationship with us?

If He gave us consciousness we would naturally relate to Him. I can easily assume He understood in advance we would automatically relate to Him. We have and don't have to imagine why. If He wanted us to exist it would happen. Why do you need a motive for Him if He sees Himself as a creator with purpose?

TONY: First, there is a reason, and we were told the reason. To care for his creation(i.e. planet earth and the animals that reside upon it.)

dhw: As above: why did he create the dodo and the duckbilled platypus for us to look after?

All in a diverse balance of nature, which is requires for life to continue.

DAVID: The relationship comes from God creating consciousness in our brains which is a purposeful act to allow us to recognize Him. No other being knows of Him. No other explanation is needed.

dhw: So the relationship and the purpose of the relationship consists in God wanting us to recognize him. How very human of him. But all that great bush of organisms from bacteria to the duckbilled platypus and ourselves in order that we should say: “God did it”? I have to say it’s not my idea of a relationship, but then I’m only human.

DAVID: Of course He has our thoughts, and your logic is human logic.

dhw: You are happy to use human logic when discussing design, what other logic can we use, and how do you know that God’s logic is different from ours?

DAVID: I'm sure his logic is like ours. But you cannot envision God except as a human being in thought.

dhw: If you’re sure he has our thoughts, and his logic is like ours, I don’t know why you object to my proposing that he has human-like thoughts and logic.

I've said His thoughts are similar to ours. What you keep ignoring is Adler's admonition that his personality is like no other personality we know. You want to poke into an area we cannot know.

TONY: Well, how about the logic of creation (i.e. Science & Math), which by definition, would be the fulfilment of God’s logic?

dhw: Definition of what? If God exists, I would certainly accept that he used science and maths. But the logic we are discussing here concerns purpose, not means.

You miss the point that our knowledge of math and science tells us much about the logic of creation and does imply purposeful activity.