philosophy of science: meaning and functions (Introduction)

by David Turell , Monday, October 01, 2018, 15:06 (2244 days ago) @ dhw

TONY: Neither can I, hence the reason I believe(as opposed to 'have faith') that his consciousness grew over time from formless energy.

dhw: I see no more reason to believe that formless energy has somehow always been conscious, but "grew", than to believe that formless energy transmuted itself into materials, which over time somehow produced and developed their own forms of consciousness.

DAVID: Here we are the same yet different: I think God is energy but was always conscious at the level that is currently present. I don't think formless energy plasma can develop intelligence and consciousness on its own.

dhw: But you do think that formless energy already had omniscient intelligence and consciousness which came from nowhere.

Something started the series of events that resulted in this universe to appear and us to appear. The beginning had to be able to think. Pure energy plasma cannot develop itself into a mind. Read Nagel!!

DHW: How does “love” counteract the logic of your God continuing to relieve his initial boredom/loneliness by creating the on-going spectacle of material life, filled as it is with love and hate, pain and pleasure etc.?

TONY: Because love is not self-serving.

dhw: Don’t you derive personal joy from loving your family? And doesn’t your personal joy “serve” you? (That does not preclude sacrificing your own interests to serve theirs.) Or are you thinking specifically of your God’s love, meaning that he couldn’t have created the spectacle to relieve his isolation/boredom because love is not self-serving. See above and below for the self-serving joy of love. However, if your God exists, and although we could then be in shocking trouble if he doesn’t love us, how do you know that he loves us? (Cue for David to scream: "Too severely humanizing!")

DAVID: No, love can be rewarding in receiving love in return.

TONY: I do not disagree. However, consider what you said. It can be rewarding to BE loved (i.e. receiving the other person's non-self-serving love.)

We can say that the reward for loving and being loved is personal joy, which is self-serving. So you can serve yourself by gaining the pleasure of serving someone else or of being served by them. I still don’t know why you think love precludes the possibility that your God’s prime purpose was to put an end to his isolation/boredom. Having something to love and be loved by (self-serving or not) would be a great way to fill the void, and would explain the anger and frustration so rife in the OT, while we can also have him enjoying the weird and wonderful goings-on as the pre-human spectacle unfolds itself (because I very much doubt that trilobites and dinosaurs would have shown him much love). I still think you and I are developing a similar vision here as regards your God’s purpose, even if it is too severely humanizing for David.

My position is explained in the previous entry.