God and evolution (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, April 02, 2017, 15:40 (2790 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The limits can be limits within an evolutionary process that God does not wish to change. God produces results by evolutionary processes. And either/or also refers to delays as humans see them or appearance of delay to us when one doesn't exist in God's mind.

dhw: Another obfuscation, and you know it. We both agree that if God exists, he used evolutionary processes. But if his sole purpose was to produce humans, you have told us that either there was a ‘delay’ because his powers were limited, or there was no ‘delay’. If there WAS a delay – the first of your own alternatives – and the limitation was not your God’s inability to find the formula for a creature resembling himself, what other limitations might he have had? Please answer.

You see me as unreasonable when it doesn't fit your concept of the issue of delay. First, delay may be a human concept when people think God can create anything immediately. Secondly, as Tony points out, goals take preparation as part of evolutions. Third, evolutionary preparations may take time. Fourth, as God views His plans, there is no delay at all in His mind. Fifth we come to limits. The best conclusion is if God uses evolutionary processes there is no limit, no delay, only process. Back to 'is God limited?' I posed this originally as part of possible discussions and our current discussion result is in my view, that there is an appearance of limits, but we cannot know for sure, and God is likely not limited at all.

dhw: If you can’t think of any other limitation, then forget about ‘delay’. You are then faced with the problem of why, if humans were God’s only purpose, he did not produce us more directly but instead specially designed every other life form, lifestyle and natural wonder extant and extinct (including the weaverbird’s nest) – and THAT was the scenario which made no sense to you or, later, for which you could find no clear explanation. For that “no-delay” scenario I have offered two explanations: 1) he did NOT specially design all the above (the weaverbird’s nest being my obvious example); 2) humans were not his only purpose.

TONY: A delay is only a delay if it is unanticipated or unintentional. This talk I keep hearing of a delay seems to me like expecting offspring to come out of the womb 30 seconds after coitus and for the already be mature adults. Why the 9 month delay? Why the 20-odd year maturation delay? I think it is obvious why, but perhaps consideration of that analogy will put pause to all of the talk of delays.

dhw: I hope my response to David will clarify the arguments. The delay hypothesis only applies if God’s SOLE purpose was to produce humans. (And you are even more sceptical than I am!) I just want to add one personal point, though: I do not have a problem, as David does, with the idea of a god experimenting. If anyone is interested, I will explain why.

I reject this interpretation of delay completely. You accept evolution. It requires time because of process. Thus delay.