God and evolution (Evolution)

by David Turell @, Monday, March 27, 2017, 22:42 (783 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: You have offered two explanations:
1 God could not do it immediately because he has limitations.
2 God preferred to do it that way, but you can’t explain why.[/i]
DAVID: Why do I have to explain why?

dhw: Nobody has to explain anything. I just thought you and I were interested in trying to make sense of the world we live in.

dhw: I agree that both hypotheses – an all-powerful versus a limited God – are reasonable.

Yes, either/or.

dhw: you rejected it because: “...any power that can produce a fine-tuned universe can then see to the creation of humans without difficulty.”

You did not understand the full implications of that statement which I did not fully explain: God created the universe from His mind or thoughts, that is, His consciousness. I believe that consciousness is at a quantum mechanics level, which is why our reality is based on a quantum underpinning. A mind which can create a fine-tuned universe from thought can easily create a process of evolution which ends up with conscious humans. Nothing inconsistent here. This introduces the idea that speciation is also at a quantum level within the genome that we have not yet found, although we do know that some living processes are at a quantum level, such as photosynthesis, for example.

DAVID: I'm sure my statement makes perfect sense. Humans were God's primary purpose, a firm point of my theology.

dhw: Your statement does make perfect sense. But it invalidates your hypothesis that perhaps God did not fulfil his primary purpose for 3.X billion years because he was limited, and that leaves you with no explanation. Why do you say both statements are “reasonable”

'Limited' is part of either/or reasoning. We can't know which is correct, and you keep implying a need for exactitude! Really!

DAVID: I follow the biochemists in the ID community who make perfect sense to me.

dhw: Once again: I accept the case for design. It is a major reason why I cannot embrace atheism. (I have explained many times why I cannot embrace theism either.) But that is not the subject of this thread, which is “God and evolution”, i.e. how and why your God might have produced life’s history as we know it. That is why all the alternatives I have offered you are theistic.

Yes, they are all possible, but none have any degree of certainty. This is why either/or works

dhw: They are not suppositions but alternative possible explanations. Your God could not produce humans straight away (= limitations), OR he didn’t think of humans till later, OR he designed evolution to follow its own paths, but did an occasional dabble which may have included humans. What is not clear?

Yes, He is limited or not. However your supposition that He only thought of humans later is very strange.. He first created a fine-tuned universe to have life. But it didn't occur to Him to create conscious humans who could relate to His consciousness until later? Possible but very unlikely for a thinking mind who started with the Big Bang. You imply He had no idea where He was headed, no goal in mind. I find that wooly thinking. You want to propose He had no purpose in mind when He started the process? I find that very hard to believe.

dhw: You even agree that all of them fit life’s history! The only supposition we have been confronted with is your insistence that your God’s evolutionary purpose was to produce humans.


dhw: However, there are interesting changes taking place in your vocabulary. Earlier it became “a” goal instead of “the” goal, and in this post you refer to your God’s “primary” purpose. Perhaps you would elaborate on what you think may have been his other goals/purposes.

Humans were His main purpose. Everything else relates to that goal. Do you have any purposes for Him He might want to achieve?

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