God and evolution (Evolution)

by David Turell @, Saturday, March 25, 2017, 18:11 (985 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I do not accept limitations out of God's control as you imply. I merely suggest it as one approach to interpretation of the history.

Here are your three irreconcilable hypotheses again:
1 Your God’s purpose in creating life was to produce humans.
2 Only God could have designed all the life forms, life styles and natural wonders extant and extinct throughout evolution.
3 God has no human attributes.

These may be irreconcilable to you, n ot to me. They are pillars of my faith.

dhw: Fact: humans did not appear until 3.X billion years after life began. Problem with reference to hypothesis 1: why?
You have offered two explanations:
1 God could not do it immediately because he has limitations.
2 God preferred to do it that way, but you can’t explain why.

There are obviously things God does without clear reasoning to us poor humans. For example, He remains concealed, except for Bible stories. I think my either/or approach is acceptable.

DAVID: “...any power that can produce a fine-tuned universe can then see to the creation of humans without difficulty.

dhw: That removes hypothesis 1 and leaves you with hypothesis 2, for which you have no explanation.

I fully believe God used an evolutionary process to produce humans and only His mind could do all the intricate planning in living biochemistry to accomplish the job. Your problem is two-fold: you don't really understand the complexity of the living biochemistry and you cannot accept that a designer is required for it. It cannot appear by chance and your spontaneously appearing IM is no answer to the need for intricate design only God's mind can supply. When I present the newly discovered complexities you accept they exist, but don't recognize how severely complex they are.

dhw:I have offered you three theistic hypotheses, and you agree that they all fit the facts as we know them.
1 Your own explanation 1, which you have rejected.

I've not rejected #1: It is an either/or situation. Either He is limited or He let time pass, simple.

dhw: 2 Your God did not think of humans till later in the process.

No. He always planned on humans, the pinnacle of evolution. the early parts were preparation.

dhw: 3 Your God gave organisms the ability to make their own way, but dabbled when he felt like it (which can include the production of humans).

He only gave them epigenetic adaptations, nothing more. Speciation is beyond individual organisms ability to create.

DAVID: You do not accept that humans are a goal.

dhw: Why “a” goal? You have always argued that they were “the” goal. Hypothesis 1 accepts “the” goal. Hypotheses 2 and 3 allow for the deliberate creation of humans, but offer a clear and logical explanation both for the “delay” and for the vast diversity of life that preceded humans.

Your human reasons for the delay miss the point that a delay is our interpretation and not God's. It may well be His choice of how to do things.

DAVID: God is not personal because He wants humans. It does not necessarily means He wants to answer our prayers, Adler's main point. God may well be impersonal in a complete sense. We hope He is not. Do not invoke that hope to make him personal.

dhw: you are actually sure that God wanted to produce humans and had a reason for doing so. That is “personal”. If he exists, then according to your beloved Adler,he is “a person like no other person.” That does not mean he is not “personal”, i.e. possessing the human attributes I’ve mentioned. And it certainly does not mean we should reject perfectly reasonable explanations of life’s history, and hence of your God’s intentions, solely on the grounds that they do not conform to the image you have of him.

Once again, I agree that He might have human 'personal' attributes, but my premise, and Adler's is, we cannot know that, so why assume it in analyzing what God does or did. You are wedded to humanizing Him. Yes, He might have those attributes but analyze with an open mind that He might not have those attributes. My 'image' of Him is to keep an open mind about what I can know about Him, not using the Bible.

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