An inventive mechanism (Evolution)

by dhw, Saturday, August 30, 2014, 12:11 (3736 days ago)
edited by dhw, Saturday, August 30, 2014, 12:45

DAVID: (under “Spider Silk”) What is being found in genomes all over the animal kingdom is a repeated use to the same genomic mechanisms in a large variety of species and families. I think this implies that there is strong evidence for theistic evolution as the proper theory. Why should the genome be that way unless planned to cover the inventive needs of life as it advances from single cells to us?-Let's confine the discussion to the theistic interpretation of my hypothesis. The inventive mechanism within the cells/cell communities is therefore your God's way of enabling life to advance from single cells to us.-DAVID: To avoid that thought, dhw has invented intelligent cells, but cannot tell us where the intelligence came from.-No-one knows where intelligence comes from: God's, yours, or that which may reside in the cells. That is not the point of my hypothesis, which is to explain how evolution may have happened. I did not invent intelligent cells: the term intelligent is explicitly used by experts such as Margulis, Shapiro and Albrecht-Buehler, along with cognitive, sentient, cooperative, communicative, decision-making etc. Apparently what I've invented is the hypothesis that this intelligence might be responsible for the innovations that drive evolution.
 
DAVID: He has forsaken chance as a mechanism. He wants to create whole new phenotypes by having them cooperate, and won't tell us where the plans come from that they must cooperatively follow. -As I've said repeatedly, just as the human cell community we call the brain comes up with plans, so too does the inventive mechanism (intelligence) within the cells/cell communities.-DAVID: That dosn't answer the huge fossil gaps I have pointed out.-Innovation by intelligent organisms explains the gaps. If the changes hadn't worked, the organisms wouldn't have survived. You are back in your trap: did God dabble? You don't think so. Did God preprogramme every innovation into the first cells? You don't think so. Then the mechanism for change has to be in the cell communities themselves. See below for your attempt to avoid the implications.-DAVID: The idea of cells cooperating into planning a new body form de nova, fully functional in all organs is beyond belief. They have to be given a plan. That is why I raised the issue of a God-given inventive mechanism.-Re "body form de novo", see my reply to Tony's polymorphism analogy. As usual, you separate the mechanism from the cells. It's absurd to argue that cells are not inventive but contain an inventive mechanism. We do not say humans are not inventive but contain an inventive mechanism (the brain). You did not raise this issue. It has been the subject of debate between us since I first proposed the hypothesis of the intelligent cell/cell communities being responsible for innovations (= an inventive intelligence within the cell). You rubbished the idea, and insisted that the only alternatives were preprogramming or God dabbling. Your epiphany seemed to come on Sunday 17 August: -Dhw: ...the idea that God programmed the very first cells to pass on intricate plans for spider silk, fire ant rafting, eyes, kidneys [...]seems to me to require a great deal more faith than the idea that he invented a mechanism that would do its own inventing as and when conditions demanded or allowed.-DAVID: Your latter suggestion makes more sense. He used a self-inventing mechanism is a great idea. Your help in proposing a most reasonable explanation for a God-guided evolution process is much appreciated.-So what happened since 17 August?-DAVID(under “Dragonfly”): You are totally blind to the complex biology behind all of this problem we are discussing.-The complex biology is one of the main reasons why I cannot accept atheism. Please don't insult my intelligence.-DAVID: Tell me how cooperating cells do it. Where did they get the plans and information? We see no tiny experimental steps, only huge jumps in fossils.[..] Your only escape from this problem is if you recognize that an inventive mechanism in cells comes with full-blown plans.-Suddenly, you are preaching my own sermon at me, with one huge exception. An inventive mechanism in the cells is the hypothesis I have been putting forward for months, but an inventive mechanism would not come WITH full-blown plans, it would INVENT plans. That is why it is an INVENTIVE mechanism. Once more, the hypothesis: your God provided the first living cells with an inventive mechanism (intelligence, ‘brain') which without preprogramming or dabbling enabled them and their increasingly complex descendants to devise innovations that would cope with or exploit environmental changes. What you are proposing is no different from your earlier insistence on total preprogramming, with dabbling as your creationist alternative, both of which you doubted on 17 August. Back to Square One.