Panpsychism Makes a Comeback in a different form (General)

by David Turell , Friday, January 25, 2019, 21:31 (1918 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I find both “first causes” equally reasonable/unreasonable, but one of them must be right. I can't decide which one. Topsy-turvy refers to your argument that life must appear first for consciousness to appear, but consciousness created life.

DAVID: You will remember my contention that consciousness cannot appear from nothing. Human consciousness requires the appearance first of a human brain that can contain it or have the ability to receive it. I do not think that our human brain invented consciousness. You may consider a first cause God as topsy-turvy but I don't.

dhw: I do not consider a first cause God as topsy-turvy! Please reread what I said was topsy-turvy (now bolded). I agree that consciousness cannot appear from nothing, and that is why it is so difficult to conceive of consciousness that never had a source (= your God). I suspect most of us would agree that human consciousness is difficult to imagine without there being a human brain – but that is precisely where the dualism versus materialism debate begins; is the brain the receiver/container, or is it the source of our consciousness? I don’t have an answer. But I would regard it as patently absurd to say that the human brain invented consciousness, because in my view there were millions of life forms before us that possessed a degree of consciousness and, as you well know, there are some highly reputable scientists who are convinced that these include bacteria. (NB: The meaning of "consciousness" should not be confined to the degree of self-awareness attained by humans.)

I didn't say God was topsy-turvy. You understand my position full well as your further discussion shows. God (consciousness) first. Life next. Then a brain to receive consciousness. In my discussions of human consciousness that is the self-aware, conceptual consciousness of most importance. Other organisms have conscious awareness but not that deeper layer that makes the 'hard problem" for human consciousness to be fully understood as to its origin. In our discussions why do you constantly try to skirt around it? Humans are different in kind! And that concept bothers you!