DILEMMAS (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, October 29, 2014, 19:32 (3676 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Perhaps it would help if you explained precisely what you mean by the word “information”. As I understand it, there are two sorts involved here: 1) the information already inherent in the organism itself: i.e. all those processes that enable an organism to live and to “think”; 2) the information which comes from outside the organism and which it has to process through its “thinking”.
DAVID: Information is what is imparted from DNA to make organisms operate. -That is what I meant by all those processes that enable an organism to live and to “think”. We are in agreement.
 
dhw: 1) has to be present from the start, but has undergone continual complexification throughout evolution, with the result that single sentient, “thinking” cells have combined into the hugely complex “thinking” organisms we know today.-DAVID: I agree about initial information. Your nebulous 'combination' is planned how? Cells respond to stimuli in the simplest of ways. There are big gaps in development to consider: start of life is one. The second is the development of the complex compartmentalized type of cell in multicellular organisms. (See the entry 10/28 15:20). Third may be the same as second, as the Cambrian animals seem to usher in this type of cell. And fourth is the human brain. All require the intervention of complex informational planning. For me they require God. Otherwise we are back to chance.-There is nothing nebulous about ‘combination'. We all know that organisms are a combination of cells! We do not know how life began, how cells compartmentalized themselves, or how they came to form all the new organisms of the Cambrian. If we knew, we wouldn't need these different hypotheses. In its theistic form, the one I have proposed is: “instead of preprogramming every innovation you can think of, God created a mechanism within the cell (located in the genome) that is capable not only of adapting [...] but also of creating most [...] of the variations we see in the evolutionary bush; but he dabbled in order to create the basic structures (such as heart, kidneys. etc etc.) and maybe even some variations, like the human brain.” How does this contradict what you have said above?-dhw: The “thinking” part of the cell/cell community, its brain or genome, has created the vast range of variations that arise from interaction with the needs or opportunities arising out of a changing environment (info type 2)). -DAVID: In my view the most important information is internal and concerned with form and function (patterns). External information provides stimuli for planned responses. If an IM is present, it is at this level that the giraffe grew its big neck with seven vertebrae, just like us (patterns), with semiautonomous patterns and guidelines. The gaps require complex informational planning for the advances to work.
-So did the inventive mechanism work out how to stretch the giraffe's neck, or are you saying God planned the giraffe's neck? I am saying the former. If it's the latter, there is NO autonomy, and God planned every single life form and wonder.-dhw: The word “theistic” does not mean under God's total control. Nor does it mean with the purpose of producing humans. It is perfectly possible for God to have deliberately created a process that runs independently of his control. As someone who believes in free will, you can hardly argue with that. 
DAVID: My 'theistic evolution' means just that. An independent evolutionary process without the needed information takes us back to Darwin. God has to have inserted the needed information. -Which “needed information”? In the hypothesis I have proposed, God provided the information that enables organisms to invent. That does not mean he dictates WHAT they are going to invent (e.g. the giraffe's long neck). So did the inventive mechanism work out how....etc?
 
dhw: If on Sunday you concede that my hypothesis is certainly possible, why do you then refuse to accept the same “maybe” on Monday?
DAVID: Your hypotheses are only possible with the restrictions I add. The sense I keep getting from you is the rabbit/hat trick, no sense of the method necessary for advancement. Cells just think their way to the subsequent goal.-Your restrictions vary from day to day. One moment the inventive mechanism is semi-autonomous, and the next God has total control. Either God planned every innovation, variation, and mode of living, or he created a mechanism (the equivalent of the human brain) which within natural limits was capable of planning and creating the vast range of variations that make up the higgledy-piggledy bush. If it's the latter, he deliberately relaxed control over evolution, though he could always step in to dabble (your patterns, and maybe the human brain). Yes, if God created a mechanism enabling cells to think their way to creating the giraffe's neck or the billions of other variations that separate one species from another, they must think their way to the subsequent goal! You can hardly expect me to explain how it all works, since nobody on this planet can tell you. So, once again: do you think God planned the giraffe's neck, did he dabble, or did the pre-giraffe's God-given inventive mechanism work it out all by itself?