God & Particles (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by dhw, Tuesday, June 10, 2014, 16:13 (3818 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You now seem to be separating "God" from the energy particles of which both he and matter are made, as if his intelligence were not within his particles. ...I hope you can understand how confusing it is to be told that God's conscious energy particles formed matter, but did not form the elementary particles of matter, and that God is within and without everything, but may or may not be within the matter which is composed of his particles.-DAVID: Perhaps I don't completely explain my meanings. I think quantum energy is eternal. I think God is somehow organized as an intelligence and has planned out all the quantum particles that drop out of the plasma and form constituents of matter. These particles have an automatic way of falling together, as they consistently do it the same way as shown by particle physics results. They are in concise families with definite ways of acting. -You are still separating God from the quantum particles of the quantum energy which you believe to be the first cause. According to you, nothing existed initially except for the quantum energy you call God. The particles of this quantum energy are "somehow organized as an intelligence" which planned to make themselves (nothing else existed) into matter, although you say the making of elementary particles of matter required no intelligence. The latter is important for me, so I'll repeat the exchange we hadhw: If it's true that energy creates matter, it's not unreasonable to assume that this creation takes place through intelligent quantum energy particles working together.
DAVID: ...It doesn't require intelligence at this level. -dhw: But according to your definition, God is quantum energy particles acting consciously. And so are you not saying now that quantum energy particles act and plan and are present but hidden in all matter, living and inorganic? If so, how can you say that the making of elementary particles of matter does not require intelligence, and you don't know how much quantum energy particles permeate everything, although you agree with BBella's summary? -DAVID: My above explanation may clear the air. If the particles are designed to work together automatically, they don't need individual intelligence. Does each gear in your car intelligently work with the other gears, or is it intelligently designed to work together?-A clever image, but again it requires a separation between designer and the thing designed. Let me repeat: Your whole scenario is based on the theory that all matter is energy and your first cause (your God) is energy. This means that all the particles of everything ARE your God ... he didn't design them as man designs gears: he IS them. This at least gives meaning to your claim that God is within and without all that is. He is inside each particle, but if we examine each particle separately, he is also outside each one, because he is also in all the others. BBella put it very succinctly, and you agreed with her: "...you ARE saying that God, thru QM, IS present in all that IS, living and inorganic..."-I should emphasize that these problems of logic are important for the panpsychist hypothesis I want to develop, and this discussion is providing very useful material. I hope you're not finding it too frustrating.