God & Particles (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by dhw, Sunday, June 08, 2014, 15:18 (3820 days ago)

I'm opening a new thread, because "God and Energy" has gone off at various tangents. That's fine, but I'm trying to use David's particular concept of God (see below) as a basis for discussing a different hypothesis, and we have to proceed one logical step at a time. I'd therefore be grateful if we could confine this thread to the single line of argument. (All quotes from "God and Energy".)
 
dhw: So if it's true that energy creates matter, it's not unreasonable to assume that this creation takes place through intelligent quantum energy particles working together.
DAVID: Quite a jump in logic. A single particle joins with another and then another and now we have a matter particle. It doesn't require intelligence at this basic level.-If your first cause is conscious/intelligent quantum energy particles that form matter, and are within and without matter, the only logical conclusion from your comment is that your God had nothing to do with the formation of elementary matter particles. Without these you can't have the solids, liquids and gases to form what you have argued is a universe deliberately fine tuned to support life.
 
dhw: This brings us to a problem. Experience suggests that different forms of matter have varying degrees of intelligence...
DAVID: Another logic leap: I agree that living matter has differing degrees of intelligence based on brain complexity, but inorganic matter does not have intelligence.-As above. If the inorganic matter of the universe is fine tuned to support life, but inorganic matter has no intelligence and yet consists of energy particles, are you saying that these energy particles have nothing to do with your God, or that he is not within the matter but manipulates it from without, even though its particles can only have come from him as first cause? Or that they came together by your pet enemy, chance?(I don't have a problem with the theory that inorganic matter has no intelligence. I'm trying to tease out the logical implications of your own theories.)
 
dhw: The parallel is to be seen in all forms of life, which through evolution develop ever greater levels of complexity ... each one brought about by the quantum energy particles combining their different intelligences, in this case from within organic cells.
DAVID: You have come back to Earth in a sense. At least you are discussing organic matter. Evolution shows a persistent increase in complexity. In some way quantum particle may play a role, if we only understood QM better. We do see evidence of quantum processes here and there (photosynthesis).-We are not discussing the mysteries of quantum processes but the concept of God as quantum energy particles acting consciously and being within and without all that is. You reject the man-made biblical concept of God as an anthropomorphized creator, but you now appear to be saying that the conscious/intelligent quantum energy particles you call God have nothing to do with and are not present in inorganic matter, and only "may" play a role in the evolution of organic life.-Perhaps you will wish to modify the concept of God as defined above, so again I'll break off.-****-Thank you for the article confirming that the current theory is for energy alone to have existed after the BB, which would also confirm that energy made matter. I'm happy to accept that, and it makes no difference to the present discussion, but if the theory were to be wrong (we'll never know), it would simply invalidate your own concept of God.