God & Particles (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by dhw, Monday, June 09, 2014, 16:56 (3821 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: So if it's true that energy creates matter, it's not unreasonable to assume that this creation takes place through intelligent quantum energy particles working together.
DAVID: ... It doesn't require intelligence at this basic level.
dhw: If your first cause is conscious/intelligent quantum energy particles that form matter, and are within and without matter, the only logical conclusion from your comment is that your God had nothing to do with the formation of elementary matter particles. -DAVID: No, God's intelligence is always behind what happened and what was planned. I don't, and cannot know, how much God permeates everything.-You now seem to be separating "God" from the energy particles of which both he and matter are made, as if his intelligence were not within his particles. Does this mean that your God is something else besides pure conscious energy? You have also agreed with BBella's summary, which you call excellent: "David, by the above...one would conclude that you ARE saying God, thru QM, IS present in all that IS, living and inorganic - tho hidden at the Q level of reality." I will comment on BBella's suggested solution to the muddle in my response to her, but I hope you can understand how confusing it is to be told that God's conscious energy particles formed matter, but did not form the elementary particles of matter, and that God is within and without everything, but may or may not be within the matter which is composed of his particles.
 
DAVID: I agree that living matter has differing degrees of intelligence based on brain complexity, but inorganic matter does not have intelligence.

dhw: I don't have a problem with the theory that inorganic matter has no intelligence. I'm trying to tease out the logical implications of your own theories.-DAVID: We have a zoo of particles, but no underlying understanding of why they are the way they are, yet they have created this universe which is fine-tuned to allow life and us. I can see purpose, but I'm sure you don't.-I'm not opposed to there being purpose, though you seem to think only one is possible, whereas I can imagine a variety of purposes, with or without your concept of God. I agree that we don't understand why or how the particles work, but that is not the issue here, as I said below:
 
dhw: We are not discussing the mysteries of quantum processes but the concept of God as quantum energy particles acting consciously and being within and without all that is. ...you now appear to be saying that the conscious/intelligent quantum energy particles you call God have nothing to do with and are not present in inorganic matter, and only "may" play a role in the evolution of organic life.-DAVID: No, I am not saying that. My concept is that God acts through quantum mechanics and has planned the whole arrangment. Quanta are present in all matter, living and inorganic. God is hidden in the quantum level of reality.-But according to your definition, God is quantum energy particles acting consciously. And so are you not saying now that quantum energy particles act and plan and are present but hidden in all matter, living and inorganic? If so, how can you say that the making of elementary particles of matter does not require intelligence, and you don't know how much quantum energy particles permeate everything, although you agree with BBella's summary? Please don't misunderstand the purpose of this discussion. I'm trying to put together a hypothesis that will smooth out these apparent illogicalities, but first it's essential to clarify the basic premises.