How God works (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, January 19, 2013, 17:47 (4116 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: Simple reason and logic also tell me that if I really was designed, whatever designed me would be equally "aware" of self-centredness, vanity, greed, sadism. And I really don't see how he could have created such things without already knowing about them from within. -TONY: I do not think that I have ever said that he didn't create the potential for those things. I am absolutely certain that he did! I am also absolutely certain that they are required! Look, nothing is black and white, good and evil, innately. Fear, can help you survive. Hate can protect you from something that can harm you.(Hating drugs, for example.) Pain is a valuable teacher, and also a valuable warning tool.
 
I hesitate to continue this discussion, firstly as any negative view of God's possible nature clearly offends you, secondly because you have in the second part of your post given me the perfect answer. However, I will try to round it off from my own perspective. I agree with all the above.-TONY: What I disagree with is first, that you classify them as evil, which, decoupled from intent, they are not.-By evil I understand deliberate actions which cause unnecessary suffering to others. "Unnecessary" is open to interpretation, but I'm sure we can find common ground on this, e.g. warning pain is not evil; pain inflicted on others for pleasure is evil.
 
TONY: Second, is that you continually blame God for all the suffering in the world, without recognizing or acknowledging two facts: 1) That life could not exist without the potential for suffering, and 2)Exposure to suffering(which must exist in order for life to exist) is generally cause through human mistakes(sin/unintentional, wickedness/intentional).-Far from "all" the suffering (I'm not unaware of self-centredness, vanity, greed, sadism etc., as listed above), but we needn't argue about the proportion, or about the need for suffering in the world we know, which I've always accepted. My focus in all these discussions has been on the NATURE of God as revealed by the world you believe he has created. You rightly drew attention to love, joy, happiness and sorrow, and I assume that "whatever designed you was aware of those emotions" also meant that he himself felt them. (You have said that God is hurt by the suffering in the world.) My argument here is that if your God as first cause created us all from nothing, he could not have been "aware" of anything that was not already WITHIN himself, including the evil potential of self-centredness. In other words, he could not have made us in such a way that we would feel things HE HIMSELF WAS UNAWARE OF AND DIDN'T FEEL. (Please don't try to answer yet. This post needs to be swallowed whole!)-You have constantly quoted the bible to prove how good God is. You even gave me a verse from Revelation as evidence, but when replaced in its immediate context it led to problems connected with physical resurrection, Christ's 1000 year reign, and eternal death for sinners organized with split-second timing ... all of which were your own interpretation of the scriptures. If God exists ... and I remain open-minded on the subject ... his nature is of concern to me. You have, I'm sure with the very best of intentions, tried to reassure me, but despite the many excellent arguments concerning the way the world has to be (whether created by God or not), and concerning all the good things your God has also created, I can see nothing other than selected quotes from various mainly unknown authors to even suggest that his nature is any different from the mixture we see all around us. Hardly surprising if he created man in his own image!-But you did give me the perfect answer: "I find no reason to doubt the things that we can not yet prove. That is the textbook definition of faith my friend, and that is the only thing that separates the A/Theist from the agnostic." It may be advisable for us to leave it at that!