How God works (Introduction)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, January 12, 2013, 21:38 (4334 days ago) @ dhw

DHW: The point at issue here is not the conditions or organisms necessary for life and evolution, but the reason for the evolutionary bush. If a god intended to produce humans from the start (the subject of the discussion between David and me), why did he create dodos and dinosaurs? Why would your "master engineer" make a disposable rocking horse and toy drum before building his roadster? An autonomous, inventive mechanism (itself invented by a god if you like) coming up with innovations as allowed by environmental change is a proposal that would explain the bush. So would a god experimenting, either ad hoc or with a particular goal he didn't know how to achieve.
> -I have said before that there was a larger purpose that was interrupted by the Eden event. So, one area where I sort of differ(I think) with David is that I do not believe that humanity is the end all be all of the divine purpose. We are an integral part though, just as your evolutionary 'bush' is. Our stated purpose was to be the gardener, if you will, the caretaker, the 'husband' of the natural world. As designed, it is/was a symbiotic relationship, one that we have managed to foul up in grand style. As for why it was designed with innovation and inventive mechanisms in place, it is for the same reason that the engineer would allow a steering wheel and independent suspension in the vehicle. The road is not always straight or even, and the vehicle must be able to adjust accordingly. As related to this discussion, the earth was not always going to be precisely the same as when it was created. That would be a dead world, and boring to boot. You are asking why God didn't build a train that ran on rails instead of an all-terrain vehicle with all the bells and whistles. I don't know why he didn't, but I am certainly GLAD that he didn't. -> DHW: ...This is the only life-supporting world we know, the higgledy-piggledy bush of evolution is the only life history we know, and the mixture of sun and rain, drought and flood, earthquakes, volcanoes, bacteria, viruses, diseases, cures, laughter, tears is the only combination we know. And so maybe that is the way it HAS to be (a kind of anthropic principle) ... but not if the particular god you believe in exists. This is the god who is said to have created the garden of Eden, where everything was apparently perfect until Adam and Eve messed things up, thereby enabling some religious people to blame all the ills of the world on human beings. You say of the earth's history: "No other way would have worked out to be a self-sustaining ecosystem." And yet you believe in Chapter 21 of Revelations, which you quoted as an illustration of your god's power and goodness: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [...] Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people [...] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Obviously, then, your God is capable of creating a new, pain-free earth with, presumably, a new self-sustaining ecosystem to accommodate our resurrected bodies (I have asked you several questions about the practicalities of this). I don't know how you can reconcile Eden and the new earth with "IT HAD TO BE DONE THIS WAY".
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> -You are going to accuse me of cherry picking, but here it is anyway. There are several instances in the bible where it refers to the "Earth" specifically in regards to the current civilization of humanity in all its forms. More reading into revelation would find you reading clearly about the destruction of the political and religious systems in the 'world'(something many religions gloss over because they are absolutely sure they are the 'right' one and hence that doesn't apply to them). How often do we use the word 'Earth' to refer to something other than the physical planet as a whole? Also, when you take the verse you quoted in context with the rest of the book, it would be referencing the new government set up by Christ and passed to YHWH at the end of 1000 years. I know you are going to try and pick this paragraph to pieces, and I don't blame you, but that is it in a nut shell to the best of my ability to explain. -In that sense, there is no need to create a new universe from scratch. It is not the earth that is broke, it is us. The earth would heal itself in short order if we would quit screwing around with it, as science could well testify too.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.