Natural Wonders & Evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Friday, September 13, 2019, 10:39 (1896 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw: (under “Horizontal gene transfer”) […] you refuse to accept the possibility that microorganisms are capable of mental activity. It’s not just major designs you discount. Your God has to preprogramme or dabble every bacterial response to every situation in the history of life past, present and future, and he even has to engineer midge adaptation. Billions of programmes and dabbles, all for the sole purpose of covering the time before he specially designed H. sapiens.

DAVID: You are describing the wrong God. My God understood the time He would need to evolve humans He did not have the sole purpose of filling time.

I don’t know how often you want me to repeat your own statements, but here we go again: “He knew those designs were required interim goals to establish the necessary food supply to cover the time he knew he had decided to take.”
He had decided to take 3.X billion years before starting to fulfil his one and only purpose of designing H. sapiens, and so the interim purpose of his specially designing every other life form, lifestyle and natural wonder was to cover the time he had decided to take. What is “wrong” with your own statement?

DAVID: Have you forgotten evolution is a stepwise process? He proceeded step by step in a logical fashion. Pre-programming made his work easier.

I thought you thought there were jumps, but it makes no difference either way. You have your God specially designing every step and every jump in life's history, even though H. sapiens was the only thing he wanted to design! I don’t know why you think preprogramming every single undabbled non-human life form, lifestyle and natural wonder made it easier for him to specially design H. sapiens. Please explain.

DAVID: The degree of specialness you agree to is not what Adler proposes in his book. He shows that we are so special God created us and has to exist.
And:
DAVID: You know, darn well, our consciousness is a different specialness.

I keep agreeing, but according to you EVERY life form shows that God created it and therefore has to exist. You’ve forgotten that you are not trying to prove that God exists, but that his one and only purpose was to design H. sapiens and everything else was an interim goal to cover the time he had decided to take! THAT is what we are discussing. You use the same dodge under “Hand signals”:
DAVID: It is not surprising that, as we are descended for earlier primates, we use hand signals as they do with the same parts of the brain involved. Still we speak words and they don't. We differ in spoken language and consciousness and that is a giant leap in evolution, which to my mind proves God exists as the source of that specialness.

Yes, you have offered us hundreds of examples (every single natural wonder) as proof that God exists. That is not the issue we are discussing.

dhw: […] and you have no idea why he chose this method of fulfilling his one and only purpose![…]

DAVID: I have no idea because I don't question His motives, as you do in a humanizing way.

dhw: You don’t question your INTERPRETATION of his motives, because you have a fixed belief – in human terms – that the only thing he wanted to design (his final purpose) was us. That is no less human than the proposal that he wanted to design a vast variety of life forms or an autonomous mechanism that would design a vast variety of life forms.

DAVID: God knew He had to make the bush to provide energy over the time involved.

So why is your proposal that he decided to take 3.X billion years to fulfil his one and only desire (humans), and therefore “had to” design billions of non-human life forms etc., less “humanizing” than the suggestion that he desired the creation of a vast variety of life forms? The same question applies to his being “totally in charge”:

Dhw: ….how do you know he has chosen to be totally in charge of evolution, as opposed to his choosing to give evolution free rein? Why is choosing to be in charge less “humanizing” than choosing not to be in charge?

DAVID: Have you forgotten the universe, as created by God. is still a dangerous place, and He gave us the brains to protect ourselves? My God runs things as far as He wants to do so. (dhw's bold)

At last! Let the trumpets sound. Still wearing my theist hat, I also propose that he runs evolution as far as he wants to, and what he wanted was a vast variety of life forms. Once more: Why is this more humanizing than his wanting H. sapiens and therefore having to create a vast variety of non-human life forms to cover the time he had decided to take before starting to fulfil his one desire?

DAVID: Free rein evolution is Darwinism!

That does not mean it can’t be true.