autonomy v. automaticity (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, January 28, 2018, 19:03 (2489 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Please tell us as clearly as you can which half of the weaverbird’s building you think was autonomous, and what form you think your God’s guidelines take.

DAVID: I have no idea which is correct, which is why I have preprogramming from the beginning and dabbling as equally probable. And I have always prefered an IM as under guidelines, if an IM is actually present, but we have no proof of it. It would seem the nest was dabbled as the best expectation.

dhw: No progress then since our previous discussions. What you mean by semiautonomous is either preprogrammed or dabbled – i.e. no autonomy at all. And what you mean by guidelines is also preprogramming or dabbling – i.e. no autonomy at all. And when you say my (theistic) hypothesis of autonomous as opposed to preprogrammed or dabbled solution-finding fits in perfectly with your theory, you actually means it’s the precise opposite of your theory. These obfuscations and blatant contradictions will not help us much in our joint quest to explain the inexplicable!

DAVID: My statement above is complete restatement of my postions. Semiautonomous has always meant that God provides guidelines. Shall we argue ove the word guidelines? Guidelines offer some latitude in results, boundaries within organisms can create.

dhw: It’s not the word we are arguing about – it’s the nature of the guidelines. I asked you which half of the nest-building was autonomous, and what FORM the guidelines might take. You did not answer then, and I am none the wiser now. If guidelines are merely boundaries which limit organisms’ creations, these are clearly set by the nature of the organism and of the environment. I doubt if a weaverbird would try to build its nest at the bottom of the ocean, but is that what you mean by “boundaries”? “Guidelines offer some latitude in results…” So what is the autonomous half of the nest-building? Did your God preprogramme the bird to tie half a knot, or did he stop halfway in the Knot-Tying Course for Beginners, and then leave Willy the Weaver to figure the rest out for himself? Or was it: “OK guys, I’ll tell you how to tie the knots, but you can choose the tree”?

We are talking past each other. You have brought up the weaver nest as part of the concept of IM. I don't view it that way. An IM, if it exists, has to do with advancing evolution by having the organism change form or function under guidelines for direction nad size of change or limits of change. The creation of a complex nest full of intricate knots require a dabble or direct aid. I thought I'd been clear before but this current statement should be clear.