Innovation and Speciation: whale changes (Evolution)

by David Turell , Tuesday, May 23, 2017, 17:27 (2739 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I don't remember where I said environmental change 'initiates' speciation.

dhw: Saturday 20 May: “Does environment play a role in initiating new species? Yes, it allowed the Cambrian to appear as oxygen levels rose, but oxygen itself didn’t require the species to appear.” A point which you keep repeating, and to which I keep replying that the drive for improvement (which you call complexity) exploits the new opportunities and leads to speciation. Environmental change (rise in oxygen) = new opportunity; drive for improvement (or complexity) takes over to exploit new opportunity. That is how, in your own words, environment change "initiates" new species.

Your interpretation of my statement is a stretch. Once again, more oxygen allows for more energy consumption in more complex animals, but in no way guarantees that such animals should evolve. That requires, as you note, another input into the process. Innate drive from '?' or God.

dhw: You asked us to watch the video, which illustrates how legs, tail, snout and body gradually (in tiny steps) became more and more streamlined for life in the water. However, it doesn’t show the jumps required for reproduction, giving birth and suckling, so why bother with the video in the first place?

I apologize for yesterday's statements, but your 'in tiny steps' irritated me. The animation was to re-introduce the magnitude of the eight/nine steps of change from air to water. The fossils indicate nothing gradual. The phenotypic gaps are huge. The whale series is very important to my reasoning about God and evolution. Putting mammals in water makes no sense on the face of it. But neither does the strange retina in humans until it is carefully studied. In that eco-niche they are not top predators, other than Orcas. Sharks are. So on one hand I don't know why, but I suspect there is a reason that research might find. On the other hand the series clearly demonstrate the need for advanced planning and design, since the aquatic mammals need to breathe air.

DAVID: …since there are no forms in tiny steps in the fossil record. Definition from Wiki: "abrupt evolutionary change; sudden large-scale mutation". For me only God can do this because of the need for prior design.

dhw: I know the meaning of saltation. It is not synonymous with prior design or an action that can only be performed by God.

The implication of saltation for me implies prior design and God.

DAVID: Entering a watery environment is environmental change.

I’m glad you now recognize that fact. Originally you informed us that speciation was separate from environment.

DAVID: it is easy to understand the requirements for a mammal who lives a good portion of the time under water.

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dhw: Yes, that’s why all the changes took place, as the pre-whale opted for an aquatic lifestyle.
How does that prove that the changes were made before the pre-whale entered the water, not forgetting the fact that the changes took place in separate stages over millions of years

To me it is logical that the changes preceded full use of aquatic life, since the requirements are so complex.

David I simply take the fossil record for what it is and what it suggests. I accept God in charge. I don't know why He created aquatic mammals which require so many phenotypic changes. Maybe He wanted to explore the challenge of creating them? So we really don't know 'how' He did it but the 'why' He did it is aquatic balance of nature.[/i]

dhw: You don’t “accept” God in charge, you hypothesize God in charge, and you have told us there are only two ways in which God can be in charge: either by preprogramming or by dabbling every innovation, lifestyle etc. The above scenario simply links the facts to your hypothesis: the pre-whale turned into the whale by stages over several million years, it didn’t happen “in one go”, and you think God did it, though his one and only purpose was to produce humans.

No, I accept God is charge as a result of all the studying I have done. Whales did not happen by chance. They were designed, as were porpoises, manatees, etc.