Ourcellves? (Identity)

by dhw, Tuesday, April 08, 2014, 15:59 (3663 days ago) @ romansh

DHW: One materialist argument against belief in free will is that "we" consist only of materials, and "we" do not have control over them, but they control "us".
ROMANSH: This is one typical dualist type of response ... woe is my self ... trapped in a body that is controlled by materialistic forces. I do not accept such an interpretation. 
ROMANSH (quoting dhw:)"we" ARE our cells
 
I don't seem to be able to get my point across. You have taken "we ARE our cells" right out of its context, and nowhere did I offer such a dualist response. I am following through the logic of a particular materialist hypothesis, which began: "IF (very large capitals) we accept the materialist argument that the brain and mind are synonymous, we ARE our cells." I am not putting a case for materialism, dualism or a homunculus. I am pointing out that IF we ARE our cells (materialist view), it is illogical to claim that our cells control us because our cells and us are the same thing. Therefore we control ourselves. -ROMANSH: The wording you have used could have been replaced as the materials (cells) are mine. Who is this homunculus that says "mine"?
 
You force me to labour the point. If the materials ARE me, it is the materials that say XYZ are mine. There is no homunculus, there is no soul or spirit, but only materials. Since you like equations, the equation is cells = me, at all their/its levels, from automatic processes through to thoughts and decisions. I am not defending any position, but simply following this one particular hypothesis through to its logical conclusion, as followsHW: Even if the mind IS the brain, and all its activities are the direct products of our materials, it is still "me". [...] Our cells ARE us, and so "we" control ourselves. And that is what people mean by free will. [N.B. This argument is still preceded by IF.]-ROMANSH: We have been through this before DHW. We can define free will however we like. The central concept of everything being a result of cause and its consequences does not go away. Whether the cause is some baseball bat or a subtle quantum phenomenon ... our wills and actions are are result of cause. Whether there is a feedback loop or hundreds of millions it does not matter.-I agree there is no escaping the chain of cause and effect. I am merely pointing out that IF we ARE our cells. it is a false dichotomy to claim that "we" are controlled by our cells etc., etc. There are, however, ramifications in terms of cause and effect which I would like to discuss, but there is no point in doing so if this initial point is still not clear.