Dualism versus materialism again (Humans)

by David Turell , Sunday, February 18, 2024, 18:04 (70 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: That is not my view. The consciousness is immaterial and separate from the brain as shown in NDE's. Yes, the brain forms the contents, but imagine as if an on-land radio sends info to a ship, which may be God's consciousness mechanism.

dhw: I know that is your view. NDEs are evidence for dualism. But your receiver image is completely muddled. At first your separate consciousness told your brain what to do, but your sick brain “garbled the message”. Then YOU said the “concept of an independent consciousness running me with messages is absurd.” Yes indeed, the idea of “messages” from a separate consciousness to the obsessive woman, telling her not to wash her hands, or to a drunkard not to kill his wife, is absurd. So how do we explain all the cases in which normality is restored by treatment of the BRAIN (diseases cured, drugs and alcohol removed)? The obvious conclusion is precisely what you said yourself: “a distorted brain CREATES a distorted consciousness.” There is no separation. The brain as the creator of consciousness with all its decisions, right or wrong, is materialism. However, that doesn’t remove NDEs and other psychic and psychological factors from the argument, and so – next comment:

dhw: I agree completely with you: “We do not know the true answer”. You can make out a case for either theory, but not by having silly messages or silly processes of materials attaching themselves to immaterials!

DAVID: Back to van Lommel, the brain receives the consciousness.

dhw: (In your ship image, you have consciousness as the receiver - all part of the great muddle.)

dhw: Back to materialism: the brain produces consciousness, which does not exist if there is no brain. You agree that we don’t know the answer, so all you do is repeat the dualist version and ignore the materialist version. “We do not know the true answer.” You said it.

The NDE's refute your now bolded statement. Consciousness exists somewhere outside the brain perhaps as part of God's supplied universal consciousness. The brain sends as receives from it is my guess.

DAVID: I don't think the materialist view is correct!

dhw\: I know you don’t. You always think your views are correct. But you had the good grace to recognize that “we do not know the true answer”. The same applies to most of the subjects we discuss. If we knew the truth, there would be nothing to discuss!

Yes, all theory.

Immortal souls
DAVID: Bacteria are automatic as they strictly follow DNA code. No brain choices. No souls.

dhw: They can’t have “brain choices” if they have no brains, but they can certainly make choices, as you agreed last month:

January 21/22:
dhw: May I assume that you unequivocally believe bacteria have the autonomous ability to alter their DNA when necessary, and without divine programming and/or intervention?

DAVID: Yes.

dhw: "Yes" means you agree.

DAVID: Please remember: "Bacteria are automatic as they strictly follow DNA code. No brain choices. No souls. I never find autonomy where you do; you must have your intelligent cells! […]

dhw: Discussion is becoming pointless. In February you completely reverse the view you took in January. Why should I believe a word you say today, if tomorrow you’re going to jump the other way? In January, when you firmly believed that bacteria had the autonomous ability to edit their DNA without instructions from God, did you believe they had souls? If not, why not?

DAVID: I believe souls, like consciousness are related to the presence of a brain. My soul arrived when I did. My future shaped it. I don't change positions. It is your constant effort to drag in intelligent cells. Remember, when cells act intelligently, they are following instructions in DNA code. Cells can be seen as 'autonomous' only under that rule, which is my use of the word.

dhw: “Autonomous” means "having the ability to work and make decisions without being controlled by anyone else” (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English). Your definition appears to be that autonomy means working and making decisions by following God’s instructions. You make a mockery of language.

I'll then concede cells look as if autonomous as above.