Dualism versus materialism again (Humans)

by dhw, Friday, February 09, 2024, 13:04 (78 days ago) @ dhw

Somewhat reluctantly, I'm reopening this thread. To save you the trouble of finding it, here is my last response when we discussed it before.

dhw: You keep stating that neurons receive consciousness. That is not a fact. It is your belief as a dualist. Neurons create consciousness is not a fact either. It is the belief of the materialist. I regard NDEs as possible evidence for dualism. I regard the influence of disease and drugs on people’s behaviour as possible evidence for materialism. I remain neutral.

DAVID: Fair enough.

dhw: But still you continue to present your belief in dualism as if somehow it nullified the argument for materialism. Hence the next exchange:

DAVID: […] Malfunctioning neurons are material and misfiring receivers of an immaterial consciousness. Thus two-part dualism. Neurons don't create consciousness as dhw seems to imply.

dhw: I do not “seem to imply” – I state categorically that any instance in which materials or material actions affect someone’s character and consequent behaviour - either negatively (the sickness) or positively (the cure) - can be taken as evidence for materialism. Conversely, I would argue that many psychic experiences, including NDEs, can be taken as evidence for dualism. You simply refuse to recognize that in nearly all our discussions, there are opinions which are just as understandable as your own.

DAVID: I know that. I fully understand your opinions. I just try to refute them as strongly as I can.

dhw: I am neutral on the subject, and present BOTH sides. You try to dismiss any evidence for any opinion that differs from your own by simply repeating your opinion as if it were a fact.

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Now back to your post

DAVID: […] the brain interprets the separate consciousness.

dhw: So the separate consciousness sends the message: “Don’t wash your hands”, and the brain misinterprets that as “Wash your hands”? The drunkard’s consciousness says: “Don’t kill your wife”, and the brain misinterprets the message, and he kills his wife?

DAVID: Foolish examples, but yes they fit.

dhw: Why foolish? And what do they fit? They are examples of abnormal behaviour. So please tell us what you think is the SOURCE of the idea to wash/to kill?

DAVID: A sick brain's distortion of an incoming message from its consciousness. The true messages appear after treatment of the brain as illustrated in this story.

WHAT message? What is the SOURCE of the urge to wash/kill?

The effects of stress

dhw: I suggest there are two kinds of depression: one caused by brain malfunction, the other by situations which trouble the patient. If the cause is malfunction, then clearly the brain is the source of the depression. If the cause is external, does your separate consciousness tell you not to worry about your isolation, the world’s chaos, your lousy prospects, and does the sick brain misinterpret this and say, “But I am worried”? Please answer. And please give us examples of “messages” sent by a separate consciousness and misinterpreted by the brain.

DAVID: Consciousness created by the brain is it acting as a receiver, much like your FM radio receiving signals. Damage a resistor chip and all that you hear is static.

Once again, you are dodging my question. What “message” is being sent in the examples I've given you?

DAVID: Worry by the consciousness covers all of your possibilities. My first wife inherited depression from her grandmother who was severely ill and had intensive treatment. Her cousin has it also, and my sum fought it all of his adult life. Wife and cousin both were treated. Familial depression.

This is very sad, but if the condition was inherited and treated, it sounds as if the cause was a malfunction in the brain. Can you inherit a separate, wise consciousness that sends messages telling you not to worry, together with a brain that tells you to worry?

DAVID: Brain damaged from birth.

And what is the separate consciousness doing all this time? Helplessly twiddling its metaphorical thumbs as it sends messages the patient ignores? These are clear cases of brain malfunction being the source of the depression.

DAVID Your brain on idle is still conscious. See here: Monday, February 05, 2024, 18:13. The messages are anything you wish to create. Your consciousness is you in constant control. Not an instructive parent or doppelganger.

Yes, the brain is conscious. The brain is not the receiver of consciousness. And that is why the first category of depression – caused by brain malfunction – supports the case for materialism. I don’t know why you refuse to give examples of “messages” to counter those that I have given, but you and your brain and your consciousness are all one, and in cases of depression, it appears to be the brain that is in control of you, your thoughts and your behaviour. I don’t know what gives you the idea that materialism = parent or doppelgänger. If anything it’s dualists who propose a doppelgänger, in the form of a you who thinks independently from your brain.