Dualism versus materialism again (Humans)

by dhw, Tuesday, February 13, 2024, 12:55 (282 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Dualists believe that the brain and consciousness are separate entities, and you tell us here how they interact. You totally ignore your statements (a) that when things go wrong “the brain garbled the incoming consciousness message”, which means consciousness sent a correct message to the brain (i.e. is supposed to “run” the brain), whereas when I ask what message could have been sent, you reply: (b) “your concept of an independent consciousness running me with messages is absurd”. So now apparently it is absurd to argue that consciousness sends messages to the brain which the brain garbles. Stop dodging your self-contradictions!

DAVID: We both understand dualism. A psychopath is an example of improper development of brain and consciousness from childhood.

In your own earlier words: “A distorted brain creates a distorted consciousness.” The brain as creator of consciousness is materialism.

DAVID: When I think of a normal adult person who develops a sick brain, does the consciousness sicken also? Or can the consciousness remain normal and its connection to the brain become scrambled? There is no answer I can choose when you want me to give one. I lean toward the latter. An immortal soul/consciousness might wish to resist the abnormality. Then the brain garbles the message.

The latter is your theory that “the brain garbles the incoming consciousness message”, which means that consciousness is sending the right message, which in turn means that consciousness normally runs the brain, but in your own words: “your concept of an independent consciousness running me with messages is absurd”. Welcome to materialism. As with most of the problems we tackle, there are good reasons for both sides: brain trouble creating consciousness trouble = materialism; NDEs and other psychic phenomena = dualism. It’s only if you try to adopt one theory and dismiss the other that you come up with all these self-contradictions. There's nothing to be ashamed of if we admit we just don't know. We did discuss a possible compromise some years ago, but I don't have time now to resurrect it.

Introducing the brain: addressing novelty

dhw: […] Do dualists believe that every mouse has a separate, immaterial consciousness that sends messages to the mouse brain? […]

DAVID: My religious background says so. Yes.
And:
DAVID: I'm stuck with nepheshes and Nehamas in the OT. My dog thinks. I see him do it. It can't just [be?] us with a separate immaterial consciousness. We evolved from animals all of whom had brains.

dhw: Immortal souls don't need brains, according to NDEs. At this rate, even bacteria could have an afterlife! Again, I can't help wondering what all the mice and ants etc. are going to do in an immaterial world! No suggestions from you? As for the OT, you do not have to be stuck with it. If you were, then you should read Deuteronomy and start killing people like me.

DAVID: I know the impression of a nasty God of the OT. Currently the interpretations have softened the impression.

Yes, your God is whatever you wish to make him. But I was only referring to the fact that your faith in the OT (you are “stuck with its nepheses and nehamas”) leads you to believe that mice etc. have immortal souls. Now apparently you can pick and choose what parts of the OT you accept or don’t accept. Do you also believe that bacteria have immortal souls? (The question is not frivolous. It's fundamental to the concept of dualism.)