How children pick up a language: new review of Wolfe (Humans)

by David Turell , Monday, November 14, 2016, 17:44 (2929 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Monday, November 14, 2016, 17:49

DAVID: Just think about the logic here. We see huge gaps in phenotype in new species. Think of the thousands of mutations that must be present. Does the new animal only breed with other new animals, or breed with old animals forming hybrids. We don't see hybrid forms in the gap fossils! Therefore new animals breed with new animals, therefore new species start with a large population as the gaps suggest.

dhw: There are two distinct points here: 1) that any innovation requires the cooperation of all the cell communities (= large families of cooperating genes) within the individual organism. Absolutely no disagreement; 2) that a large population of the new species is required right from the beginning in order for it to survive. How can gaps suggest a large population? Gaps suggest saltation, and that’s all.
DAVID: And I know how saltation occurs. God. I've told you logically there must be new numbers of a new species all of whom need multiple similar new organized mutations. And you think cells can conjure that up. Totally unreasonable to me.

dhw: There is no disagreement between us on the fact that a new species requires multiple new organized mutations. “New numbers” is the point at issue, since you insist the numbers must be large. I don’t see why.

Just read my first statement above about hybrids (old phenotype combined with new phenotype). The gaps don't show them. In a new sexual species there must be males and females to tango together to create a stable population of new forms. This means the new large population of newly integrated mutations has to appear at the same time in both male and female. Not by chance. And don't tell me your favored cell populations (whatever that means)cross talk between male and female!

dhw: Does Haldane tell us how many? According to the Bible, two were enough, but we are not great believers in that story, so give us a clue. What do the mathematicians regard as a viable number to start a new species?
DAVID: Haldane didn't tell us. He calculated not enough time.

dhw: Of course he didn’t tell us. Nobody knows how many individuals are needed to start a new species, and your claim that large numbers are required is pure speculation. Haldane presumably calculated not enough time for random mutations to create new species – a different issue altogether.

Population genetics math must involve starting numbers of new species!

DAVID: It just takes a few dividing every 20 minutes with all the survival mechanisms on board. That is obvious math to the power of two.

dhw: Good to hear that just a few cells are needed to pass on millions and millions of programmes. May I suggest that just a few organisms might be needed to pass on ONE programme, as individuals come up with the innovations that lead to new species? With these “just a few” reproducing, within “just a few” generations numbers will increase exponentially until you have lots and lots of them. Obvious math.

Remember we are discussing single celled organisms which pass every code onboard. Doesn't answer my 'hybrid' approach.