The biochemistry of cell communication (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, September 03, 2016, 12:47 (3002 days ago) @ David Turell

I am combining several posts as they all deal with the same subject: cellular intelligence, for which it seems to me there is mounting evidence.-dhw: The scientists who believe in cellular intelligence believe that cell communities have the same proprioceptive (yeah, had to look that one up!) knowledge.

DAVID: Can you give me a reference that tells us cells have proprioceptive sense.-As I said, I had to look it up. My Encarta dictionary defines proprioceptor as “any receptor (as in the gut, blood vessels, muscles etc,) that supplies information about the state of the body”. If this is correct, the scientists who believe in cellular intelligence believe that cell communities consciously communicate, interact and cooperate, which could not possibly happen without their acquiring and exchanging information about the state of the body they compose. If this is a wrong definition of “proprioceptive knowledge”, then of course I will withdraw my statement.
 
xxxxxx-DAVID (re the Tasmanian devil):There is a variability in individual immunity. dhw: Obviously there is variability, since some organisms die. The question is how this immunity comes about when there is a new threat. ....I also asked if you thought your God had programmed the immunity or personally dabbled to save the Tasmanian devil. If not, please explain how you think some organisms acquire their immunity to new threats.
DAVID: Please see my above statement again. There is no reason to deny the possibility that some devils had a partial natural immunity to the cancer from the beginning. In that case they would not need God. The other possibility is epigenetic changes to DNA over four generations. again god not needed for direct intervention.
How does an organism change its “partial” immunity to full immunity? Any mechanism whereby an organism changes itself in order to counter new threats in my view requires some kind of intelligence, whether organic or divine. (I don't see how “epigenetic” change precludes intelligent restructuring in response to a new threat.) And so back we go - still within the confines of your theism: you have discounted dabbling, so did your God preprogramme immunity to this new form of cancer, or did he give the organism the intelligence to change itself?-xxxxxx -DAVID: Shapiro's main contribution is that organisms can reorganize their DNA. I agree with that point.
dhw: Why “main” contribution? If he thinks they are able to do this consciously (not to be confused with human self-awareness), it is a mighty step forward in our understanding of how evolution works: “…intelligence is not only found in the heads of humans, but also in the roots and leaves of trees, and the movements of microorganisms, and even the inner workings or the most basic units of life.” You could hardly have a clearer statement.
DAVID:You keep forgetting the 'intelligence' could be automatically controlled by implanted instructional information.-I was disputing your claim that Shapiro's “main” contribution was that organisms can reorganize their DNA, as if this somehow overshadows the importance of his claim that organisms are intelligent. I know you disagree with him.-xxxxxx -QUOTE (under “Biological complexity”): It is not yet clear how these two ligands induce such disparate effects in the same cell by the same receptor. “That's the million-dollar question,” said Leifer. It might be that the ligands recruit different co-receptors, or induce TLR4 to adopt different conformations, she suggested."
David's comment: I view this as two automatic molecular responses, as Leifer also seems to in her statement re' mechanism. This is an either/or reaction involving a so far unknown molecular change.-I may have missed something, but I can't find the word “mechanism” anywhere. I've found detect, recognize, determine, sensing, interpret….all of which seem to suggest some sort of…how should I put it…intelligence?-xxxxxx-David's comment (re ants): ...the parallelism with human agriculture is amazing. The ant colonies show a group cleverness and one must wonder did the ants work out this arrangement on their own or were they guided? They originally lived on leaves. How did they find a somewhat compliant fungus?-I keep referring to the astonishingly intelligent achievements of ants as an analogy to cellular cooperation. At least you have now allowed for the possibility that ant communities may be intelligent, whereas you refuse even to countenance the possibility that cell communities may work in similar fashion. -xxxxxx-David's comment (under “transcription and DNA structure”): ...the glucocorticoid example is a wonderful description of how the body is coordinated in its feedback controls of various important chemical levels. I again ask, how did evolution develop such a complex stepwise system of intimate controls. Hard to imagine it is trial and error.-Indeed, the whole body is a wonderful example of how cell communities communicate and cooperate with one another. How much trial and error there was, we shall never know, but the Tasmanian devil took four generations to perfect its immunity to a new form of cancer. Maybe “this system of intimate controls” took many generations, and many individuals died while others soldiered on in their intelligent pursuit of perfection.